xcopy
03-24-2010, 07:30 AM
Should copier technicians be able to do network or it service calls.
View Full Version : If i take down someones network what are the penalties in Australia.
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RRodgers
03-24-2010, 07:37 AM
I do IT work all the time. I will say this, if you DO NOT know what you are doing, this is probably an area you shouldn't touch. At least not in a customers office. This could look VERY bad on the company. Just don't do it. I doubt you'll fry something, but.. you might take something offline that really needs to be online all the time. (ie server) If you wanna learn, do it in your office with your IT guy. If he's not forthcoming... break something and watch over his shoulder as he fixes it. :) (j/k)
mrwho
03-31-2010, 10:15 PM
I personally avoid messing with servers at all costs. A server usually has sensitive and/or important data, and if anything happens - even if you're not at fault - usually the blame goes to you.
To someone who doesn't know IT, you're to blame for the loss of all the data on the server, even if all you did was add a printer driver or configure a scanning destination.
Not worth the risk, IMHO.
To someone who doesn't know IT, you're to blame for the loss of all the data on the server, even if all you did was add a printer driver or configure a scanning destination.
Not worth the risk, IMHO.
KenB
04-01-2010, 12:50 AM
While the customer may not come after you personally, dealerships have a very definite liability exposure in this area.
Somewhere around 1997 or 1998, we were once accused of taking a customer's Internet connection down, and it took a day for their "farmed out" IT guy to get there to restore it.
The customer claimed that since most of their income was Internet based (something to do with securities), that we owed him roughly $7,000 for a lost day's work.
We ended up giving him all kinds of discounts instead, along with a lot of promises and guarantees.
Rumor had it that if he had insisted on payment, that he probably would have gotten it if he pursued it enough, as we would have spent more than $7,000 in legal fees alone, and most likely would have lost.
Somewhere around 1997 or 1998, we were once accused of taking a customer's Internet connection down, and it took a day for their "farmed out" IT guy to get there to restore it.
The customer claimed that since most of their income was Internet based (something to do with securities), that we owed him roughly $7,000 for a lost day's work.
We ended up giving him all kinds of discounts instead, along with a lot of promises and guarantees.
Rumor had it that if he had insisted on payment, that he probably would have gotten it if he pursued it enough, as we would have spent more than $7,000 in legal fees alone, and most likely would have lost.
anothertech
04-01-2010, 02:39 AM
I do network installs all the time and in a lot of offices there is no IT person. You have a choice whether to have them hire out for an IT guy or just go ahead and do it yourself. I just do it, it's more fun than fixing some old dirty copier.
Like RRodgers said, if you're not sure what your doing, practice on the network in your office.
If the boss won't let you touch the office network, they can't really expect you to do anything on the customers network.
Like RRodgers said, if you're not sure what your doing, practice on the network in your office.
If the boss won't let you touch the office network, they can't really expect you to do anything on the customers network.
KenB
04-01-2010, 03:52 AM
I do network installs all the time and in a lot of offices there is no IT person. You have a choice whether to have them hire out for an IT guy or just go ahead and do it yourself. I just do it, it's more fun than fixing some old dirty copier.
Like RRodgers said, if you're not sure what your doing, practice on the network in your office.
If the boss won't let you touch the office network, they can't really expect you to do anything on the customers network.
Good point on the no IT staff.
With the economy being what it is, I see more and more customers who have no IT at all. They may or may not have someone who they use on a per call chargeable basis. Time was when everybody had an IT staff, or at least someone they dealt with on at least a weekly basis. Those days are gone, along with the glory days when an IT professional could name his price - almost literally.
That's what makes our jobs tougher when it comes to connecting our devices. We need to go in just deep enough to make our stuff work, yet not break the customer's network.
Further complicating matters is that machines now integrate more with the networks, with enhanced security capabilities, LDAP integration, and the like.
Copier dealership management should be aware of this, and I'm sure that 99% of them are. They should know that attempting an install without the proper training and preparation can spell disaster.
As already mentioned in this thread, the key is to practice, practice, practice. While most all of my techs have been trained, the single biggest complaint I hear is "I don't do this often enough to be good at it." The more that they get to ride with an experienced tech the more different network environments they will see, and be better versed when out in the field on their own. I've had a few guys get really good in doing setups in the demo or training room, but don't do so hot in the customer's office. :cool:
Like RRodgers said, if you're not sure what your doing, practice on the network in your office.
If the boss won't let you touch the office network, they can't really expect you to do anything on the customers network.
Good point on the no IT staff.
With the economy being what it is, I see more and more customers who have no IT at all. They may or may not have someone who they use on a per call chargeable basis. Time was when everybody had an IT staff, or at least someone they dealt with on at least a weekly basis. Those days are gone, along with the glory days when an IT professional could name his price - almost literally.
That's what makes our jobs tougher when it comes to connecting our devices. We need to go in just deep enough to make our stuff work, yet not break the customer's network.
Further complicating matters is that machines now integrate more with the networks, with enhanced security capabilities, LDAP integration, and the like.
Copier dealership management should be aware of this, and I'm sure that 99% of them are. They should know that attempting an install without the proper training and preparation can spell disaster.
As already mentioned in this thread, the key is to practice, practice, practice. While most all of my techs have been trained, the single biggest complaint I hear is "I don't do this often enough to be good at it." The more that they get to ride with an experienced tech the more different network environments they will see, and be better versed when out in the field on their own. I've had a few guys get really good in doing setups in the demo or training room, but don't do so hot in the customer's office. :cool:
rh112
04-01-2010, 04:00 AM
As mrwho said even if you do nothing wrong and something happens then you get the blame
You can do something as simple as add a printer to a stand alone computer but if that computer has any problems after you finish then customer will say what did you do to my computer it was working fine until you touched it
I had this happen several years ago took forever for customer to confess that the computer had been having issue before the printer was added
I have been doing this for 30 years and as Paul Harvey said "and now for the rest of the story"
Which is what we never seem to get anymore from the customer
You can do something as simple as add a printer to a stand alone computer but if that computer has any problems after you finish then customer will say what did you do to my computer it was working fine until you touched it
I had this happen several years ago took forever for customer to confess that the computer had been having issue before the printer was added
I have been doing this for 30 years and as Paul Harvey said "and now for the rest of the story"
Which is what we never seem to get anymore from the customer
TheOwl
04-06-2010, 12:13 AM
I am an IT / Copier Tech and I deal with both situations all the time and there are two trains of thought on this.
1. If the network is that important, they will have an IT person that will install drivers and get everything going with the advise of the copier tech. If they can't be bothered doing so and get the copier tech to install the drivers, they are running the risk of a network failure. If a new copier is install in one of my IT based sites (wheather it be one of our copiers or another manufacturer) then I make sure that I install the drivers, setup scanning etc. If I stuff it up, then it's my fault and I have to fix it. If a server crashes while a copier tech is installing drivers, then I didn't do my job properly. I know first hand that IT people love to shift the blame because they can be really really lazy.
2. If your client doesn't have an IT person (in house or out sourced) then just let them know straight up that problems can sometimes occur when installing driver etc and that if it happens, then you can't be put to blame. If the client doesn't like that, then suggest they get an IT person to do the work for them. 98% or all problems when copier techs service a network is pure coincidence any way and the other 2% can usually be put down to a bad driver disk which would have the same effect if the IT person put into the server. Again, as other have al ready said though, if you don't know what you are doing, then don't do it. It's the same with photocopiers that we service and maintain. If we don't know what we are doing on them, then we don't touch them.
Well, that's my 2 cents worth anyway. lol
1. If the network is that important, they will have an IT person that will install drivers and get everything going with the advise of the copier tech. If they can't be bothered doing so and get the copier tech to install the drivers, they are running the risk of a network failure. If a new copier is install in one of my IT based sites (wheather it be one of our copiers or another manufacturer) then I make sure that I install the drivers, setup scanning etc. If I stuff it up, then it's my fault and I have to fix it. If a server crashes while a copier tech is installing drivers, then I didn't do my job properly. I know first hand that IT people love to shift the blame because they can be really really lazy.
2. If your client doesn't have an IT person (in house or out sourced) then just let them know straight up that problems can sometimes occur when installing driver etc and that if it happens, then you can't be put to blame. If the client doesn't like that, then suggest they get an IT person to do the work for them. 98% or all problems when copier techs service a network is pure coincidence any way and the other 2% can usually be put down to a bad driver disk which would have the same effect if the IT person put into the server. Again, as other have al ready said though, if you don't know what you are doing, then don't do it. It's the same with photocopiers that we service and maintain. If we don't know what we are doing on them, then we don't touch them.
Well, that's my 2 cents worth anyway. lol
KenB
04-06-2010, 12:46 AM
I think a lot of undue pressure is put on techs to be a "do it all" guy (or gal!) by salesreps setting unrealistic expectations of just what the service department can do.
"Don't worry Mister Customer, DOS, AS400, Oracle, SAP, UNIX, no problem... they see this stuff every day!"
No pressure there!!
"Don't worry Mister Customer, DOS, AS400, Oracle, SAP, UNIX, no problem... they see this stuff every day!"
No pressure there!!
rickg
04-06-2010, 02:07 AM
why not get a wavier signed before doing any work. This way you are not liable if their system goes down.
Ducttape n Glue
04-06-2010, 08:49 PM
I'm old enough to remember when we had the first /HPCanons something like LS or LPT( my memory is gone) something or something printer engines in 1984 and we would go out on a service call and say well its not the hardware so it must be the software or the computer and then the customer would call the software guy and he would say its the computer and the computer guy would come out and say it was the software and the printer, well you get the idea, nobody back then did it all and the customers had to pay everyone or in some cases no one cus it was the fault of the something else so they did'nt want to pay for the call.
There was also what I think was called Errors and Omissions Insurance or some other liability insurance that the dealership added to their policy and that was suppose to cover them/ tech in just this very case, if you brought down a customers website or any other IT related issue they may have caused.
Our neighbor has an online retail store that does 3/4 of a million a year in business and his provider went down for 2 days and they blamed a tech doing work at the server. Well 3/4 of a million divided by 365 days x 2 = $4,109.58 on average and their insurance paid.
Recomendation: Buy the insurance if your a dealership that plays with the customers IT stuff. It should be part of your standard liability insurance policy, check.
There was also what I think was called Errors and Omissions Insurance or some other liability insurance that the dealership added to their policy and that was suppose to cover them/ tech in just this very case, if you brought down a customers website or any other IT related issue they may have caused.
Our neighbor has an online retail store that does 3/4 of a million a year in business and his provider went down for 2 days and they blamed a tech doing work at the server. Well 3/4 of a million divided by 365 days x 2 = $4,109.58 on average and their insurance paid.
Recomendation: Buy the insurance if your a dealership that plays with the customers IT stuff. It should be part of your standard liability insurance policy, check.
emujo
04-07-2010, 09:37 PM
I think the IT side is the absolute best possible facet of todays copier tech. With a little knowlege you can be very dangerous, but a well trained tech can look like a f***ing wizard and may account for the customers decision to add/replace their MFPs when the time comes. I personally think that 90% of the knowlege you need comes from OJT and that A+ cert you have is only to give you the basics. Most IT departments have little knowledge on exactly how a perphial must be set up to print/scan ect..and will rely on the tech to get things running smoothly. My best advice is to jump in and get your hands dirty, use these forums to ask questions and get answers to questions you know the customer will ask. Setting up a scan/print solution for a customer running the latest server may be daunting, but after a few times it becomes fairly simple. As long as we have techs that are afraid to work on the print/scan end of the MFP, I'm sure I will have a job. Emujo
Ducttape n Glue
04-07-2010, 09:57 PM
I think the IT side is the absolute best possible facet of todays copier tech. With a little knowlege you can be very dangerous, but a well trained tech can look like a f***ing wizard and may account for the customers decision to add/replace their MFPs when the time comes. I personally think that 90% of the knowlege you need comes from OJT and that A+ cert you have is only to give you the basics. Most IT departments have little knowledge on exactly how a perphial must be set up to print/scan ect..and will rely on the tech to get things running smoothly. My best advice is to jump in and get your hands dirty, use these forums to ask questions and get answers to questions you know the customer will ask. Setting up a scan/print solution for a customer running the latest server may be daunting, but after a few times it becomes fairly simple. As long as we have techs that are afraid to work on the print/scan end of the MFP, I'm sure I will have a job. Emujo
I wholeheartedly agree. When my IT guy goes out and does an install and networks the customers printer , we look like heroes. We have gone in and saved clients from their own outsourced IT people who can screw things up just as well as the next guy, or they usually try and make it so complicated that the customer has to have them involved for every little change or add on.
Another thing, many of the younger techs grew up with this stuff and can whip around it like nothing. It's some of us older folks who really didn't keep ourselves up to date who suffer if we have to do it ourselves.
Don't let yourself fall behind the technology.
I wholeheartedly agree. When my IT guy goes out and does an install and networks the customers printer , we look like heroes. We have gone in and saved clients from their own outsourced IT people who can screw things up just as well as the next guy, or they usually try and make it so complicated that the customer has to have them involved for every little change or add on.
Another thing, many of the younger techs grew up with this stuff and can whip around it like nothing. It's some of us older folks who really didn't keep ourselves up to date who suffer if we have to do it ourselves.
Don't let yourself fall behind the technology.
fixthecopier
04-07-2010, 11:25 PM
I wish I knew more about the IT side. I pick up bits from my IT people, and will do stuff for them with phone support.. Just yesterday, I rebuilt someones fuser, they called back an hour later to say they could not print since I worked on it. I went back to check the basics, then told them I would send an IT guy next morn. The main thing that limits me is that my main customer is not allowed to print to my copiers, so I have few IT problems to solve. My belief is that the more you know, the more power you have.
mrwho
04-08-2010, 12:03 AM
My belief is that the more you know, the more power you have.
Right on the nail you hit, my friend.
[/yoda]
:)
Right on the nail you hit, my friend.
[/yoda]
:)
oldrn
04-22-2010, 07:23 PM
Another thing, many of the younger techs grew up with this stuff and can whip around it like nothing. It's some of us older folks who really didn't keep ourselves up to date who suffer if we have to do it ourselves.
Don't let yourself fall behind the technology.
I found this thread while looking for help on installing connected copiers on a network with a server. This older folk copier tech is having a tough time keeping up with technology. A small office supply business tech in an economically depressed area (depressed even before the recession) selling few multi-function machines makes it tough to find opportunities to learn or practice connectivity issues. I work in an office where the owner does not allow me to learn(much) on our small pier-to-pier network.( He knows less about networking than I do.) I am allowed to install print drivers on the service dept PC to test equipment but that's about it. If anything happens on the network, he doesn't consider it a useful learning experience. I went to a local college to learn inter-networking but did not get into servers. Even if our customers have someone doing their IT work, it would be good to know more about server environments. I could set up a server on my home network but don't know how many copiers I could get into my house to practice with... Any thoughts on training avenues for this 50 something year old tech who isn't afraid to learn?
Don't let yourself fall behind the technology.
I found this thread while looking for help on installing connected copiers on a network with a server. This older folk copier tech is having a tough time keeping up with technology. A small office supply business tech in an economically depressed area (depressed even before the recession) selling few multi-function machines makes it tough to find opportunities to learn or practice connectivity issues. I work in an office where the owner does not allow me to learn(much) on our small pier-to-pier network.( He knows less about networking than I do.) I am allowed to install print drivers on the service dept PC to test equipment but that's about it. If anything happens on the network, he doesn't consider it a useful learning experience. I went to a local college to learn inter-networking but did not get into servers. Even if our customers have someone doing their IT work, it would be good to know more about server environments. I could set up a server on my home network but don't know how many copiers I could get into my house to practice with... Any thoughts on training avenues for this 50 something year old tech who isn't afraid to learn?
mrwho
04-22-2010, 08:07 PM
Most of the basic network experience you can learn is done while practicing. What I usually recommend to people when they ask me that is "Get a couple of PCs at your home and make your own peer-to-peer network, then do the usual stuff: share the internet between them, share your home deskjet or otherwise printer (if it has a network card it's a big bonus) and configure all your PCs to print to it, etc". That probably won't tech you much about networking the MFPs, but at least will make you comfortable setting up and troubleshooting common network problems and, while at it, you'll hopefully learn about IP addresses, DNS, gateways, subnetmasks, and what they are about.
Venom
05-20-2010, 11:50 AM
Have the customer sit in front of the server and tell them which buttons to press...if it crashes...you didn't touch it
tcs04
05-24-2010, 11:03 PM
I just LOVE it when the on site (Or external) IT guy says "I'll install the driver myself" because I KNOW the first call will be "WE can't staple" and the driver won't have the finisher set up!!... Or the LCT... OR the paper bank... Great way to gain points with the operator!! Just say "We won't charge this time and when something does go wrong remind them how you helped last time!
D_L_P
05-25-2010, 12:40 AM
...the first call will be "WE can't staple" and the driver won't have the finisher set up!!... Or the LCT... OR the paper bank...
AMEN!
Very good advice about playing with your home network, MRWho. I have 2 computers and an inkjet printer and just setting it up to share 1 folder to transfer files was extremely helpful.
I agree with TheOwl, if their network is that important you probably won't be allowed near it. On the other hand if there is no in house IT staff you probably don't have much of a choice and they probably aren't going to be that inconvenienced if their server needs a reboot. But technically I know I'd be liable if anything happened so I just use my best judgment.
AMEN!
Very good advice about playing with your home network, MRWho. I have 2 computers and an inkjet printer and just setting it up to share 1 folder to transfer files was extremely helpful.
I agree with TheOwl, if their network is that important you probably won't be allowed near it. On the other hand if there is no in house IT staff you probably don't have much of a choice and they probably aren't going to be that inconvenienced if their server needs a reboot. But technically I know I'd be liable if anything happened so I just use my best judgment.
KenB
05-25-2010, 01:13 AM
I just LOVE it when the on site (Or external) IT guy says "I'll install the driver myself" because I KNOW the first call will be "WE can't staple" and the driver won't have the finisher set up!!... Or the LCT... OR the paper bank... Great way to gain points with the operator!! Just say "We won't charge this time and when something does go wrong remind them how you helped last time!
Oh. man, that seems to happen a least once a week! I've had some of the otherwise sharpest IT guys out there not add the accessories.
Of course, then there's the smart@$$ who tries to pin the goof-up on us.
Oh. man, that seems to happen a least once a week! I've had some of the otherwise sharpest IT guys out there not add the accessories.
Of course, then there's the smart@$$ who tries to pin the goof-up on us.
paulg
06-15-2010, 12:49 PM
Insurance is vital and make sure the real bosses ie people who will get hit with the lawsuit know whats going on. If your in a big company with a legal department of its own etc then i doubt you have to worry much but if i was with a small dealership find out what is in place. whats the offcial policy of your company?
Remeber you may never actually "bring down" or be to blame for any issue on the customers network but if the customer accuses you/your employer someone still has to deal with the lawsuit.
No point your supervisor/call controller saying to you over the phone "well you go its a simple task" and the directors turning round saying well you broke our policys/regulations your responsible!!
If the company do keep asking you to do network calls ask for formal training preferably with certification which people recognise A+ and N+ are a good start. While its good of them to give you a few days shadowing the network guru of the company or a few old computers and what not to play with.
It may even be really good for the way you like to learn and develop but means you have nothing to show either customer or potential employers ;-)
Dont ever bite off more than you can chew and I would advise you document all that you do (keep a copy and leave a copy with the m/c or cusomer) and explain clearly to others what you have done.
Documenting the calls covers you (best if you can get it signed while at the customers) and of course is useful for remebering what you did last time both at that customers and others.
Remeber you may never actually "bring down" or be to blame for any issue on the customers network but if the customer accuses you/your employer someone still has to deal with the lawsuit.
No point your supervisor/call controller saying to you over the phone "well you go its a simple task" and the directors turning round saying well you broke our policys/regulations your responsible!!
If the company do keep asking you to do network calls ask for formal training preferably with certification which people recognise A+ and N+ are a good start. While its good of them to give you a few days shadowing the network guru of the company or a few old computers and what not to play with.
It may even be really good for the way you like to learn and develop but means you have nothing to show either customer or potential employers ;-)
Dont ever bite off more than you can chew and I would advise you document all that you do (keep a copy and leave a copy with the m/c or cusomer) and explain clearly to others what you have done.
Documenting the calls covers you (best if you can get it signed while at the customers) and of course is useful for remebering what you did last time both at that customers and others.
DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS
10-23-2010, 06:50 PM
I advice all copier techs to seriously consider taking short courses in IT.Forget this rubbish of being only a copier tech or old time copier-tech. be old physically but mentally young. The term photocopier itself is next to obsolete. modern digital copiers are essentially network devices. its therefore important that a technician be highly knowledgeable in all technical aspects of these modern machines in order to keep abreast of the technological advances and maintain the market. modern copiers are essentially IT EQUIPMENT. Thanks.
Copier Doc
10-23-2010, 09:19 PM
Unfortunatly us old school copier techs have had to come into the world of IT.
But the IT techs (in my experience) seem to think we are an inferior species!!
Example..... I posted an issue 3 days ago, installed a ricoh cl7300 printer & setup on customers network with their remote support centre.
Following day i get a call saying nothing printing, turns out out that remote support people had been looking through web monitor & locked printer down to one IP address!!
Who gets the blame?? 'YOUR PRINTER DOESNT WORK!!'
Bloody IT techs eh!!
But the IT techs (in my experience) seem to think we are an inferior species!!
Example..... I posted an issue 3 days ago, installed a ricoh cl7300 printer & setup on customers network with their remote support centre.
Following day i get a call saying nothing printing, turns out out that remote support people had been looking through web monitor & locked printer down to one IP address!!
Who gets the blame?? 'YOUR PRINTER DOESNT WORK!!'
Bloody IT techs eh!!
kingpd@businessprints.net
10-29-2010, 01:42 AM
why not get a wavier signed before doing any work. This way you are not liable if their system goes down.
That's what we do. Too many times we got burned from customer bull shit. Get a 100% liability waiver, and oh by the way...we charge an IT fee if we do it.
That's what we do. Too many times we got burned from customer bull shit. Get a 100% liability waiver, and oh by the way...we charge an IT fee if we do it.
kingpd@businessprints.net
10-29-2010, 01:44 AM
I'm old enough to remember when we had the first /HPCanons something like LS or LPT( my memory is gone) something or something printer engines in 1984 and we would go out on a service call and say well its not the hardware so it must be the software or the computer and then the customer would call the software guy and he would say its the computer and the computer guy would come out and say it was the software and the printer, well you get the idea, nobody back then did it all and the customers had to pay everyone or in some cases no one cus it was the fault of the something else so they did'nt want to pay for the call.
There was also what I think was called Errors and Omissions Insurance or some other liability insurance that the dealership added to their policy and that was suppose to cover them/ tech in just this very case, if you brought down a customers website or any other IT related issue they may have caused.
Our neighbor has an online retail store that does 3/4 of a million a year in business and his provider went down for 2 days and they blamed a tech doing work at the server. Well 3/4 of a million divided by 365 days x 2 = $4,109.58 on average and their insurance paid.
Recomendation: Buy the insurance if your a dealership that plays with the customers IT stuff. It should be part of your standard liability insurance policy, check.
That's a good idea too. Get a waiver anyway though.
There was also what I think was called Errors and Omissions Insurance or some other liability insurance that the dealership added to their policy and that was suppose to cover them/ tech in just this very case, if you brought down a customers website or any other IT related issue they may have caused.
Our neighbor has an online retail store that does 3/4 of a million a year in business and his provider went down for 2 days and they blamed a tech doing work at the server. Well 3/4 of a million divided by 365 days x 2 = $4,109.58 on average and their insurance paid.
Recomendation: Buy the insurance if your a dealership that plays with the customers IT stuff. It should be part of your standard liability insurance policy, check.
That's a good idea too. Get a waiver anyway though.
slybot
10-29-2010, 12:09 PM
Unfortunatly us old school copier techs have had to come into the world of IT.
But the IT techs (in my experience) seem to think we are an inferior species!!
Example..... I posted an issue 3 days ago, installed a ricoh cl7300 printer & setup on customers network with their remote support centre.
Following day i get a call saying nothing printing, turns out out that remote support people had been looking through web monitor & locked printer down to one IP address!!
Who gets the blame?? 'YOUR PRINTER DOESNT WORK!!'
Bloody IT techs eh!!
i can SOOOOOO relate to that. 99% of the IT depts that i have to deal with wouldnt know their arse from a hole in the ground
But the IT techs (in my experience) seem to think we are an inferior species!!
Example..... I posted an issue 3 days ago, installed a ricoh cl7300 printer & setup on customers network with their remote support centre.
Following day i get a call saying nothing printing, turns out out that remote support people had been looking through web monitor & locked printer down to one IP address!!
Who gets the blame?? 'YOUR PRINTER DOESNT WORK!!'
Bloody IT techs eh!!
i can SOOOOOO relate to that. 99% of the IT depts that i have to deal with wouldnt know their arse from a hole in the ground
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