Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

[blackcat4866]

It's a new network install. The old printer was at 10.0.0.3 and plugged into a router, and I assigned the same address to the KM C25. When I plugged in the laptop to the same router I was assigned 169.254.188.3

When I ran NetScan the only thing I could find on the 169. 254.188... range was my laptop. When I ran the 10.0.0... range I got nothing, even with the printer connected. The printer did ping, and I could access Pagescope. I loaded the driver to my laptop and successfully printed.

The clients were connected wirelessly to a different wireless router. Two Win7 PCS, 10.0.0.5 and 10.0.0.24. Neither would ping my laptop or the printer. I loaded the drivers. Naturally discovery would not find the printer, but I assigned an address. It still would not print, ping or access Pagescope.

What's going on here? The Dell communicated just fine on 10.0.0.3 so why would it not work on the KM? Does the wireless router look for a specific MAC address? I know I haven't provided much information, but that's about all I could figure out. =^..^=

[Ikon Princess]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

Don't know if this will help but with my limited knowledge here goes. The 169.254.x.x means that the dhcp server has failed, apipa (automatic private ip addressing) ip address ranges are 169.254.0.1 to 169.254.255.254. The subnet should be 255.255.0.0. A private class A address scheme is between 10.0.0.0 to 10.255.255.255 with a gateway of 255.0.0.0. If it were me I would call their IT department. I am only halfway to my A+ and this is as far as I have learned yet, hope it turns a light bulb on for you or someone else here.

[blackcat4866]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

I can confirm that the assigned address to the laptop was subnet: 255.255.0.0 gateway same as IP
My laptop did not pick up a domain, DNS1 or DNS2, or WINS.

On the clients the subnet was: 255.255.255.0

I don't know if this confirms or contradicts ...
Thanks for your comments. =^..^=

[Shadow]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

you will need to see if the 10.0.0.3 IP was assigned with the mac reservation. it could be that their IT guy/gal set it up that way even though there is a static IP address assigned to the machine.
can you access their router and see for your self?
you might have to get their IT involved to assist in sorting this out.

[blackcat4866]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

I did advise the customer to involve their own IT. I'm fairly good at identifying my own limitations.

Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense. So the MAC address has to match up ... =^..^=

[Shadow]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

yes, if the mac address does not match it will be placed in a sand box with nothing to do.
some it companies us this as a way of preventing a customer from changing their equipment with out their involvement.
they use it as a way of extra billing to the client for tech support outside of the "normal" services.

[Mr Spock]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

If they have two routers they may be giving out different network address or all machines maybe static. Also the routers may not talk to each other as well.

[ddude]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

I did advise the customer to involve their own IT. I'm fairly good at identifying my own limitations.

Yes, this is where the answer will lie.

• Mr Spock
  Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?
  If they have two routers they may be giving out different network address or all machines maybe static. Also the routers may not talk to each other as well.
• 3 Hours Ago
  Shadow
  Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?
  yes, if the mac address does not match it will be placed in a sand box with nothing to do.
  some it companies us this as a way of preventing a customer from changing their equipment with out their involvement.
  they use it as a way of extra billing to the client for tech support outside of the "normal" services.
  

The problem does seem to be a hierarchy issue, an outside IP assigner vs an inside IP assigner.....

[TheOwl]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

Ikon Princess is just about spot on in regards to 169.254.x.x addressing.

You did say that you could ping and talk to the machine though which is technically impossible between a 169.254.x.x address to a 10.0.0.x address unless there is a gateway available for the translation such as a PC on the network with two NIC's, one assigned on the 10.0.0.x range and another on the 169.254.x.x range.

Just by chance, did you do an ipconfig /all on your laptop when you had it plugged into the network? And when you had it plugged into the network, was your wireless card enabled? If you do an ipconfig /all, you will get all the NIC information from all of your NIC's and you may have done whatI have done in the past and looked at the wrong NIC.

Other things that can be done on a network that could hinder your progress:

MAC Filter list for DHCP - I have setup a couple of networks like this which prevents anything other than the listed MAC addresses in the filter list from obtaining an IP via the DHCP server. This gets implemented on a network where you don't want users brining in their own equipment and putting them on the network.

Switch configurations - Switches can also be configured to divert or deny certain traffic on the network. Another thing that can be configured in the switches is VLAN's (Virtual Local Area Network) which basically allows you to run multiple subnets through your switch gear, but also keep those subnets separate so that two different lots of subnet traffic never meet or get confused so to speek with other traffic on the network.

Gateways - The network may have a specific gateway that does wireless to wired network routing. While highly unlikely in this day in age due to better wireless routers, it could be a possibility.

Subnet - Depending on the subnet in use, could stop traffic from talking to addresses. Just make sure that the subnets on the PC's match the subnet on the copier.

Does the copier pick up an IP address via DHCP if you enable it on the copier? If it doesn't, then I would say that there is a MAC filter list via the DHCP server or from something else which just denies traffic period unless the MAC address is set to an allow state from what ever is blocking the traffic.

[blackcat4866]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

Lots of great questions! I'll try to answer as many as I can:

Ikon Princess is just about spot on in regards to 169.254.x.x addressing. ...

... Does the copier pick up an IP address via DHCP if you enable it on the copier? If it doesn't, then I would say that there is a MAC filter list via the DHCP server or from something else which just denies traffic period unless the MAC address is set to an allow state from what ever is blocking the traffic.

The MFP also picked up a 169.254.188.xxx address. I don't think I read it wrong or imagined it this time. The wireless network for this customer is secured, and I had enough problems without introducing another.

You did say that you could ping and talk to the machine though which is technically impossible between a 169.254.x.x address to a 10.0.0.x address unless there is a gateway available for the translation such as a PC on the network with two NIC's, one assigned on the 10.0.0.x range and another on the 169.254.x.x range.

Yeah, I thought is was unlikely-to impossibly, myself, but alas I was able to ping and reach Pagescope across the void.

Just by chance, did you do an ipconfig /all on your laptop when you had it plugged into the network? And when you had it plugged into the network, was your wireless card enabled? If you do an ipconfig /all, you will get all the NIC information from all of your NIC's and you may have done whatI have done in the past and looked at the wrong NIC.

Without entering the password for a secure connection, no IP should be assigned, correct? I must say that this is one of the most bizarre networks I've ever looked at. A wireless router connected to a wired router, and a printer plugged into the wired router: does that make any sense? There are only two PCs, so why bother with wireless? They're all within 15 ft of the router(s). And when I did the ipconfig/all on the customers Win7 laptop I saw some unexpected IPv6 values. Is anyone using IPv6 yet? This will be the first time for me. Could both IPv4 and IPv6 be running simultaneously?

MAC Filter list for DHCP - I have setup a couple of networks like this which prevents anything other than the listed MAC addresses in the filter list from obtaining an IP via the DHCP server. This gets implemented on a network where you don't want users brining in their own equipment and putting them on the network.

Me too. This one is my guess, but it leaves a lot of other thinks unexplained.

Switch configurations - Switches can also be configured to divert or deny certain traffic on the network. Another thing that can be configured in the switches is VLAN's (Virtual Local Area Network) which basically allows you to run multiple subnets through your switch gear, but also keep those subnets separate so that two different lots of subnet traffic never meet or get confused so to speek with other traffic on the network.

No switches. Could the other router be re-configured to serve some other purpose?

Gateways - The network may have a specific gateway that does wireless to wired network routing. While highly unlikely in this day in age due to better wireless routers, it could be a possibility.

Both functions on one router .. OK, I get that. But two routers?

Subnet - Depending on the subnet in use, could stop traffic from talking to addresses. Just make sure that the subnets on the PC's match the subnet on the copier.

169.254.188.3
255.255.0.0
169.254.188.3

10.0.0.3
255.255.255.0
10.0.0.1

Isn't the first class B, and the second class C? Nope. I'm just as confused as when I started. =^..^=

[TheOwl]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

169.254.188.3
255.255.0.0
169.254.188.3

10.0.0.3
255.255.255.0
10.0.0.1

Isn't the first class B, and the second class C? Nope. I'm just as confused as when I started. =^..^=

You are spot on with the Class of Subnet. An easy way (without adding routing and other bits and pieces into the equation) of remembering how a subnet works with IP addressing is to use the following:

192.168.0.10
255.255.255.0

If you align the octets up (each value between the .'s), each one will cover a number in the subnet mask. Any octet with in the subnet that is marked 255 means that for IP addresses to be able to talk, the values of the IP address must be the same. If it is a 0 in the subnet mask, then the value can be between 0 and 255.

Occasional you might see a subnet like:

192.168.0.10
255.255.254.0

This subnet allows for a one bit difference in the third octet of the IP address. In this case, 192.168.0.10 and 192.168.1.253 can talk to one another because the subnet allows it.

Now back to the problem at hand, if the copier also picks up a 169.254.x.x address, then I would guess that there is a MAC filter being used whereby you might have to get their IT people involved unless you want to have a crack. The other option is that there is no DHCP on the network at all.

With the wireless card, it can depend on your last connection and other stuff, but normally you would be right with your wireless card not having an IP address, but wierder things have happened... lol

IPv4 and IPv6 can work in conjunction with one another with out interferring. Say you plug your laptop into a network that supports both, then you would be able to talk to your laptop using IPv4 or IPv6. Same goes with the copier.

I'm guessing that the router has multiple network ports on it which makes the router a switch as well as a router, so there could still be some VLAN involved, but again that one is for their IT.

A wireless router works in a different fasion to an internet router. A wireless router can be seen as a media converter so to speak. It turns wireless traffic into wired traffic which would then go back to the internet router / modem so that wireless devices have access to the outside world (ie the internet).

As per normal, let me know if there is anything you want me to expand on.

[Frits]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

Try the following, Switch the channel mode form the wireless router form auto to a fix channel did solve my problem.

[kronical]

If you are up to it. Check the cable from the router to the wireless. If it runs into the 'internet' or wlan port then they have 2 routers running in tandem. If the cable runs to lan port 1 on the wireless then the wireless is simply an access point (wireless switch). Regardless, if your laptop pulls a 169 address then either dhcp is off (and IPs will need to be manually configured) or mac filtering is set up which will require mac input into the filter list.
If the wireless is set as a router as described above, and the printer is on the wired router, you need to find out the IP of that router to use as your default gateway. This will be different than the gateways configured on the pcs if they are on the wireless. Without proper DGs configured, it is impossible for any communication to occur outside of that particular router (ie pcs will see each other with just an ip, because they are connected to the same router, but wont see anything on the other router because the gateway address is the link between the two.)

[blackcat4866]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

Now back to the problem at hand, if the copier also picks up a 169.254.x.x address, then I would guess that there is a MAC filter being used whereby you might have to get their IT people involved unless you want to have a crack. The other option is that there is no DHCP on the network at all.

I was back today with a mostly blank network site survey. IT informs me that there is no Mac filtering. There are 6 other offices with the exact same setup, so what's the problem?

The other router is really an AT&T DSL modem. If I understand this correctly, the modem with access to the outside world often has a completely different IP scheme than the wireless. I retried using the wireless connection. On wireless I could NetScan and Ping the other PCs, but not the MFP. I agree that the IP scheme that the modem speaks on probably does not have DHCP available.

The temporary solution is to set up the MFP as a local USB printer, then share it out to the other wireless PCs. The IT guy is out of state, and I don't think he wants to come out here to fix it. The scan to email data is entered, but won't be of any use until the ethernet connection is resolved.

Try the following, Switch the channel mode form the wireless router form auto to a fix channel did solve my problem.

I don't think I'm that brave.

If you are up to it. Check the cable from the router to the wireless. If it runs into the 'internet' or wlan port then they have 2 routers running in tandem. If the cable runs to lan port 1 on the wireless then the wireless is simply an access point (wireless switch). Regardless, if your laptop pulls a 169 address then either dhcp is off (and IPs will need to be manually configured) or mac filtering is set up which will require mac input into the filter list.
If the wireless is set as a router as described above, and the printer is on the wired router, you need to find out the IP of that router to use as your default gateway. This will be different than the gateways configured on the pcs if they are on the wireless. Without proper DGs configured, it is impossible for any communication to occur outside of that particular router (ie pcs will see each other with just an ip, because they are connected to the same router, but wont see anything on the other router because the gateway address is the link between the two.)

If I understand correctly, the DSL modem will be communicating to the wireless router on a totally different IP scheme. The gateways are very different: 169.254.188.3/10.0.0.1

Unless the individual ports on the wireless router are able to be assigned separately, I just don't think that this arrangement can work. The obvious solution is a wireless bridge.

Thanks for all your comments. =^..^=

[TheOwl]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

So I am assuming that this is how the setup should work:

DSL Modem with DHCP Service running on the 10.0.0.x range
Wireless Router / Access Point connected to DSL modem via copper

Now typically if you used this setup, the DHCP service should be shut down on the Wireless Router / Access Point as DHCP traffic can make its way through the network and two DHCP servers cause big headaches unless they are VLANed correctly. This means that the modem should be supplying the DHCP service to the network.

Did the PC's using the wireless network have an IP address in the same range as the router?

If they didn't, then this could be causing your issues.

Can you ask the IT people the following questions:

Which device hands out the DHCP traffic?
Is DHCP traffic allowed to cross both devices?
What is the IP range, subnet, gateway and DNS servers that all devices on the network should be using?

The other thing to add to this is that the Wireless Router / Access Point can have a totally different IP address to the DHCP Scope. This can be done so that intruders into the network can't readily access the Wireless Router without knowing the IP address of it and setting their IP address into the same range. If this is the case, then the modem would be the DHCP server which sends the DHCP service into the wireless router which then just converts the wired traffic to wireless.

Altering the Channel ID of the wireless router might help, but I seriously doubt it as the PC's connected via wireless would also have issues. Altering the Channel ID slightly changes the frequency band that the wireless runs on, similar to radio stations. The reason you might change the Channel ID is because you have other equipment such as cordless phones which also run on the 2.4GHz or 5GHz band which interfer with the wireless traffic. Changing the ID might move the band to 2.410GHz - 2.490GHz to try and get away from the same frequency of the other equipment.

Just as a silly test, try this:

1. ipconfig /all on wireless connected PC
2. Turn off the wireless on the PC (or disable the wireless card if you need to) and try plugging it into the copper network.
3. ipconfig /all again and see what changes.

At the end of the day, if you can plug your laptop and the MFD into the modem and get them talk either via DHCP or static assignments, then the issue is their IT peoples to fix as you can prove that the device does in fact work on the network.

Oh... one other thing, does the wireless router have other network ports in it or is it just a single network port which is connected back to the modem? If there are other ports avaiable on the wireless router, then try plugging the machine in to one of them and see what happens.