Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

[blackcat4866]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

Surprisingly I've done most of these things:

So I am assuming that this is how the setup should work:

DSL Modem with DHCP Service running on the 10.0.0.x range
Wireless Router / Access Point connected to DSL modem via copper

True.

Now typically if you used this setup, the DHCP service should be shut down on the Wireless Router / Access Point as DHCP traffic can make its way through the network and two DHCP servers cause big headaches unless they are VLANed correctly. This means that the modem should be supplying the DHCP service to the network.

Did the PC's using the wireless network have an IP address in the same range as the router?

If they didn't, then this could be causing your issues.

I don't really know who's handing out addresses. The wireless PC's and router do have addresses in the same range: 10.0.0.xxx
My laptop does connect wirelessly in the 10.0.0.xxx range, but via one of the four RJ45 ports on the back of the router I get 169.254.188.xxx (APIPA, correct? Meaning no real IP is handed out.) If both the MFP and the laptop are plugged into the router they can communicate on 10.0.0.xxx or 169.254.188.xxx or crossways. I know it's illogical, but there it is. The router will hand out 169.254.188.xxx addresses, but if i set static 10.0.0.xxx addresses they work too if both devices are wired.

Can you ask the IT people the following questions:

Which device hands out the DHCP traffic?
Is DHCP traffic allowed to cross both devices?
What is the IP range, subnet, gateway and DNS servers that all devices on the network should be using?

Which device? Don't know.
DHCP traffic cross both devices? I don't think I understand the question.
IP/Subnet/Gateway? All the wireless devices and the previous printer were at 10.0.0.xxx/255.255.255.0/10.0.0.1
A total of 8 devices were picked up by NetScan. Four were wireless PCs and laptops including my own. The other four? Who knows? One may be the router. One might be the DSL modem.

This portion of my network site survey was blank, but I have some confidence that this part is correct.

The other thing to add to this is that the Wireless Router / Access Point can have a totally different IP address to the DHCP Scope. This can be done so that intruders into the network can't readily access the Wireless Router without knowing the IP address of it and setting their IP address into the same range. If this is the case, then the modem would be the DHCP server which sends the DHCP service into the wireless router which then just converts the wired traffic to wireless.

I've seen this before on a very confusing setup a few years ago. There was an Airport (Mac Wireless?), a wireless router, and a seperate wired network. Their IT was coaching me over the phone. I honestly have no idea what I was doing, just punching keys as prompted. There were three seperate IP ranges for sure. What a mess. Some of the wireless clients could see the printer. Some of the wired clients could see the printer. Ugggh.

Altering the Channel ID of the wireless router might help, but I seriously doubt it as the PC's connected via wireless would also have issues. Altering the Channel ID slightly changes the frequency band that the wireless runs on, similar to radio stations. The reason you might change the Channel ID is because you have other equipment such as cordless phones which also run on the 2.4GHz or 5GHz band which interfer with the wireless traffic. Changing the ID might move the band to 2.410GHz - 2.490GHz to try and get away from the same frequency of the other equipment.

I suspect this isn't going to be an option. There are 8 wireless networks in a relatively small building, and I imagine there was some coordination so as not to tread on each others toes.

Just as a silly test, try this:

1. ipconfig /all on wireless connected PC
2. Turn off the wireless on the PC (or disable the wireless card if you need to) and try plugging it into the copper network.
3. ipconfig /all again and see what changes.

At the end of the day, if you can plug your laptop and the MFD into the modem and get them talk either via DHCP or static assignments, then the issue is their IT peoples to fix as you can prove that the device does in fact work on the network.

Ok. Silly test:
1. 10.0.0.xxx/255.255.255.0/10.0.0.1, DNS1 and DNS2: 216.xxx.xxx.xxx, IPV6 (it was only 6 or 8 numeric digits, I don't know the format), DHCP: 10.0.0.1
2. No real wired network, just ports on the back of the wireless router.
3. DHCP pulls 169.254.188.xxx/255.255.0.0/169.254.188.xxx (IP same as Gateway), No DNS, No WINS, No DHCP, No IPv6, No domain, not much of anything.

Into the modem? There were three ports. One connecting the modem to the router. When I tried to use either of the other two I got nothing. No attempt to connect, no change. I did not try connecting to the one remaining port because I would have downed their network.

Oh... one other thing, does the wireless router have other network ports in it or is it just a single network port which is connected back to the modem? If there are other ports avaiable on the wireless router, then try plugging the machine in to one of them and see what happens.

There were a total of 5 ports on the wireless router, the first connecting the modem. All pulled 169.254.188.xxx addresses as above. Does that clarify anything? By the way, thanks for sticking with me. I'm faily accurate with my observations, for what that's worth. =^..^=

[TheOwl]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

Just a couple of things that are odd, but not detrimental to the situation:

The DNS Server you mentioned was 216.x.x.x which is what I am assuming is the clients ISP's DNS server. Normally the IP address of the modem would be used as the primary DNS server. If you are trying to ping internal traffic by Hostname, then it might not work correctly because the DNS servers are outside the network and won't propagate the internal names to IP addresses. This will still work after a while as the PC's will update a file called the LMHOSTS file which is basically a small DNS listing internally kept within Windows.

I don't suppose that you have checked the wireless PC's to see if they have a static IP address set in them? Everything I have read so far points to there being no DHCP service on the network at all, or if there is, it is one picky little sucker.

I keep coming back with all these ideas, so sorry if you have to keep travelling.

Try setting the copier an IP address statically with the following settings:

IP Address - 10.0.0.254 (I think that you were using 10.0.0.3 before, so try anything but .3)
Subnet Mask - 255.255.255.0
Gateway - 10.0.0.1
DNS 1 - 10.0.0.1
DNS 2 - 8.8.8.8 (which is Google's public DNS server)

Once you have that setup, see if changing the IP address to something other than .3 has helped the situation. If it hasn't, just quickly try and ping the following sites from your copier as this will tell us that machine can actually talk through the modem:

google.com
google.com.au
tasapba.com
internode.on.net

The last two are something that I quickly thought of as they probably wouldn't have been listed as DNS entries as yet. tasapba.com is a Powerboat Racing website from the state of Tasmania in AUS and internode.on.net is an Australian ISP, so there is nothing malicious, just sites that probably haven't been visited by anyone on the network which means that the DNS is going to have to work to resolve the IP addresses.

You could also try the aboce tests with your laptop plugged in and static assignments set to it as well.

I'll go ahead and explain my previous questions a little more:

Which device hands out DHCP traffic? Basically which device on the network acts as a DHCP server? Normally the modem, but that could be wrong.

Is DHCP allowed to cross both devices? Say that the DHCP server is the modem, is the DHCP traffic from the modem allowed to cross into the wireless network to serve the wireless PC's or is it denied. Vise versa with with the possibility of the wireless router being the DHCP server as well.

I have another question to add to this mix as well. If the wireless PC's are using DHCP and not static IP addresses, could you please do another ipconfig /all and tell me when the lease was obtained and when the lease expires?

Hopefully this site isn't too far away from you and you aren't travelling big distances just to test these out. I hate nothing more than constantly visiting the same site, for the same problem for extended periods of time. Especially since at the end of the day, there is just going to be something a little screwie in the network which could be resolved simply by ticking a box in the modem or something... lol

[blackcat4866]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

I've been working from memory. Last time onsite was last night.

I don't suppose that you have checked the wireless PC's to see if they have a static IP address set in them? Everything I have read so far points to there being no DHCP service on the network at all, or if there is, it is one picky little sucker.

All wireless devices are DHCP, and pick up addresses between 10.0.0.5 up to 10.0.0.30 not sequential.

Try setting the copier an IP address statically with the following settings:

IP Address - 10.0.0.254 (I think that you were using 10.0.0.3 before, so try anything but .3)
Subnet Mask - 255.255.255.0
Gateway - 10.0.0.1
DNS 1 - 10.0.0.1
DNS 2 - 8.8.8.8 (which is Google's public DNS server)

I can try this next visit. I did try other static addresses: 10.0.0.28 (which was unused and between the active addresses) with the same results.

You could also try the aboce tests with your laptop plugged in and static assignments set to it as well.

What's that?

I have another question to add to this mix as well. If the wireless PC's are using DHCP and not static IP addresses, could you please do another ipconfig /all and tell me when the lease was obtained and when the lease expires?

Next time. Incidentally IT is satisfied with the temporary USB shared setup, so I think my role in this may be complete. At least for now.

I did take a screen shot of the command prompt screen, since the wired results were so unlikely:

Ping.JPG =^..^=

[TheOwl]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

I've been working from memory. Last time onsite was last night.



All wireless devices are DHCP, and pick up addresses between 10.0.0.5 up to 10.0.0.30 not sequential.



I can try this next visit. I did try other static addresses: 10.0.0.28 (which was unused and between the active addresses) with the same results.



What's that?



Next time. Incidentally IT is satisfied with the temporary USB shared setup, so I think my role in this may be complete. At least for now.

I did take a screen shot of the command prompt screen, since the wired results were so unlikely:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]16334[/ATTACH] =^..^=

Another thought to add to the mix which might actually start explaining something, but I wonder if the modem has two IP addresses? This is entirely possible asI have setup sites with modems utilising 2 ipaddresses before.

Maybe 10.0.0.1 is the primary and a 169.254.x.x IP address as the secondary which would explain the ping response as the modem is routing the ping request to its other 10.0.0.x range.

The other odd thing that you have mentioned is that the PC's don't pick up IP addresses in a sequential format. Take some brave pills (or have a couple of Whiskeys, which ever you prefer) and jump into the web interface of the modem and have a look at the DHCP settings. Something in the back of my head is saying that the DHCP leases could be set to never expire which means that any device that has ever connected to the network has been assigned an IP address via DHCP for life, or until some one factory resets the modem. This equates to the modem thinking that there is no IP addresses available to lease.

That brings me to another maybe. I wonder if their IT people would mind factory resetting the modem? Its possible that they might not want to, but really all that needs to be done is for the internet username and password to be entered back in so that there is a connection back to the internet again. Then again, there might be a bunch of customer port forwards and firewall rules...

What is the brand and model of the modem? I might do some research on them and see if I can find out more.

[TheOwl]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

169.254.188.3 it is default routing IP if you connect your device to the network and your network is not enabled the DHCP auto IP renew device will remain this ip and will not take another ip just put the any any ip in the range of network.

Thanks for the input, but if you read through all the other posts, this has already been tried and we understand about 169.254.x.x Private Address spaces.

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

Might be time to tell them since they set up their own funky *ss system that is so abnormal from what 99.99% of other people do when setting up a network that they should figure it out for themselves...

...either that or you need to charge them some booookoe bucks per hour to figure it out for them.

Here's a few links for some valuable resources for your client:

Amazon.com: networking for dummies

Amazon.com: networking for dummies

[kronical]

Seems like this is being way too overcomplicated.
If you are getting a 169.xxx.xxx.xxx address then there is NO communication to any kind of DHCP server. If DHCP is on and unrestricted (as IT says) then there is a problem between the modem/router and the wireless router.
Ignoring the wireless router for the time being, is the modem itself one of those cheap ass modems with wireless built in? You may have users pcs connecting wirelessly to the modem instead of the wireless router. Easy check, unplug the wireless routers power and see if the users are still online.
If the wireless router is configures as an access point (Dhcp off) and the connection from the modem to the wireless is connected to the wan/internet port on the wireless, it will still act as a router with no dhcp. It MUST be connected to lan1 on the wireless. Also, many routers configured in switch/AP mode MUST have lan2 empty or it will revert back to routing mode with no dhcp and no incoming connection.

Just for reference, what is the MFD connected to, the modem or the wireless?

Personally I would unplug the wireless router power first to see if the users stay online or go down.

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

kronical has a good point.

I know when I hooked up cable internet to the house they threw in a free cable modem with built in wireless and I threw it straight in the garbage can so I could use my traditional modem with wireless router and ethernet switches.

[blackcat4866]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

Might be time to tell them since they set up their own funky *ss system that is so abnormal from what 99.99% of other people do when setting up a network that they should figure it out for themselves...

...either that or you need to charge them some booookoe bucks per hour to figure it out for them.

This is exactly where we've arrived. "Standard installation is totally covered on functioning networks. This is not a functioning network... "

Ignoring the wireless router for the time being, is the modem itself one of those cheap ass modems with wireless built in? You may have users pcs connecting wirelessly to the modem instead of the wireless router. Easy check, unplug the wireless routers power and see if the users are still online.
If the wireless router is configures as an access point (Dhcp off) and the connection from the modem to the wireless is connected to the wan/internet port on the wireless, it will still act as a router with no dhcp. It MUST be connected to lan1 on the wireless. Also, many routers configured in switch/AP mode MUST have lan2 empty or it will revert back to routing mode with no dhcp and no incoming connection.

Just for reference, what is the MFD connected to, the modem or the wireless?

Personally I would unplug the wireless router power first to see if the users stay online or go down.

I'm certain that the wireless clients are connecting via the wireless router, not the DSL modem. I accidentally shut it down for 10 minutes when somebody asked me when the network would be up again. As for cheapness, I can't really judge.

I didn't look at the port designations. Next time. Are you saying the plugging in a hard wired printer shuts down DHCP if it's plugged into the wrong port?

The MFP is plugged into the wireless router. I checked all available ports with the laptop, but got no usable connection from the other two available ports on the DSL modem. All four available ports on the wireless router react the same.

Does that clarify anything? =^..^=

[TheOwl]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

Does that clarify anything? =^..^=

It clarifies that its F@#KED!!! LMAO

[blackcat4866]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

[Chameleon]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

I did take a screen shot of the command prompt screen, since the wired results were so unlikely:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]16334[/ATTACH] =^..^=

nice screen shot! Your IP is 169.xxx and yet you get a reply from a 10.xxx without a gateway ip?


Did you try a tracert? type " tracert 10.0.0.3 "

That will give the route by which the ping is working. you can do " tracert -4 10.0.0.3 " or " tracert -6 10.0.0.3 " to force IP4 or IP6.

I imagine your laptop is using ip6 since your ip4 gateway is empty and the default ip4 address. But I don't think ip6 is native to xp, or it should have listed an ip6 with the ipconfig /all.

I'd imagine a "arp -g" will come back with nothing more than your laptop IP but it would still be worth running just to get some more info.

[blackcat4866]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

Did you try a tracert? type " tracert 10.0.0.3 "

I'd imagine a "arp -g" will come back with nothing more than your laptop IP but it would still be worth running just to get some more info.

I don't think my Dell will do IPv6. can you explain the arp -g?

Neither of these commands are in my bag of tricks. =^..^=

[Chameleon]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

The ARP (address resolution protocol) command is similar to your netscan utility only it uses MAC addresses to resolve IP addresses. We used to use it setting up the old pocket print servers. You used an ARP "add" command to give the print server an ip which you could then use to connect to the web interface and from there enter everything else. But ARP -g will list all the physical (MAC) addresses it can see.

I kinda thought XP didn't have ip6 native, I'm just guessing they used ip6 to print to the old printer since the ip4 setup seems so screwy. I would be curious what the tracert command comes back with. Them using ip6 to print would explain why they can't see your laptop or the new printer, but you can somehow see the printer. Were they setup using a \\name\port to print? Ip6 ports use UNC similar to the old SMB ports. They just use a host name and port.

[blackcat4866]

Re: Anyone care to try to explain this IP conundrum?

... I kinda thought XP didn't have ip6 native, I'm just guessing they used ip6 to print to the old printer since the ip4 setup seems so screwy. I would be curious what the tracert command comes back with. Them using ip6 to print would explain why they can't see your laptop or the new printer, but you can somehow see the printer. Were they setup using a \\name\port to print? Ip6 ports use UNC similar to the old SMB ports. They just use a host name and port.

Nope. IPv4 port assigned as 10.0.0.3
Nice try. =^..^=