C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

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  • srvctec
    Former KM Senior Tech

    500+ Posts
    • Oct 2009
    • 827

    C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

    Weird one here. I've dealt with lots of 99-01 jamming calls over the years but none like this one. In the past when it's happened, it's always been on both printing and copying. But this one is just like the title says. C452 with 367.5K is getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying. None of the other trays jam on the same print jobs that cause a 99-01 on tray 3. I can run single and 2-sided copies all day long with no jams whatsoever from tray 3.

    Initially, I went for something entirely different late yesterday afternoon (folding corners from tray 4) and was told by the customer that another tech (coworker) told her we couldn't fix tray 3 because it needed a part that cost too much and she would just have to do without the use of tray 3, so for the last 3 months she has had a note on the tray to not use it. WTF!!?? This is a contract customer and that's NOT how we are supposed to handle issues but lazy techs will always be lazy (that's a WHOLE other story for another thread and time). While there yesterday, I thoroughly cleaned the entire machine and corrected the mis-stacked paper in tray 4.

    So, I told her I would fix the issue with tray 3 so they could use it. This morning, I replaced worn out and 6 year old feed, take-up and separator rollers. Cleaned the one-ways and sanded the shafts. I also replaced the clutches since they looked like they had seen better days. Also, the conveyance roller A00J601111 was worn like they tend to get over time (clearly smooth and smaller diameter). Ran lots of test copies, single and 2-sided from tray 3 without issue. Had the customer run a print job (happened to be 2-sided) to test and on the very first sheet it jammed with 99-01. Message said to load 8 1/2 x 11 plain which is what is loaded and indicated on the machine display. Also, the LCC setting in System 2 is set to 8.5 x 11 for both trays 3 and 4. Deleted the job and immediately ran another 2-sided copy job without any issues.

    She was printing a pdf, I think from Edge, which made me cringe because the native application usually works better than a browser. She tried another 2-sided print job from tray 3 and it printed out with 2 sheets of paper but with only print on side 1 of the first page. I'm not allowed to look at or mess with the PC or anything on their network. So, I told her to have her IT take a look at the drivers and make sure are the correct ones and also try from other applications. Sounds to me like something on their end because there would be no way a print job would jam when a copy job won't from the same tray. Right?

    The only thing I didn't try and regret not doing is connecting my laptop and see what results I get from it verses their network. I might go back out in a week or 2 and try that if their IT doesn't do or check anything. They aren't using the machine much with this whole pandemic thing going on so she said to give it a couple weeks and go from there.

    So, has anyone seen anything like this?
    Am I missing anything obvious?

    Of course, ZERO help from the service manual.

    I did find some info in the Knowledge Base (Solutions) KBA01100536 that mentioned lots of things to try and check, all of which I already did. Of course then it says replace PRCB and if that doesn't fix it, MFPB but it sounds like they are talking about a consistent 99-01, not specifically when printing.
    Last edited by srvctec; 04-16-2020, 10:17 PM.
    Started in the copier service business in the fall of 1988 and worked at the same company for 33.5 years, becoming the senior tech in 2004 but left to pursue another career on 4/29/22.
  • Synthohol
    Certified Konica Expert

    Site Contributor
    5,000+ Posts
    • Mar 2016
    • 5463

    #2
    Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

    hmm, c452.
    check the reg roller bushings for binding, also make sure driver is US not EU.
    have you printed from your laptop to see if its on the driver end?
    do you want to try firmware?
    We know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two.
    The medication helps though...

    Comment

    • tsbservice
      Field tech

      Site Contributor
      5,000+ Posts
      • May 2007
      • 7635

      #3
      Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

      To me seems you've done great job. The only thing left uncovered as you know is isolating problem from their PCs, apps, programs and drivers by doing direct tests from your laptop. A very small chance that newest FW would help as Synthohol mentioned.
      Good luck
      A tree is known by its fruit, a man by his deeds. A good deed is never lost, he who sows courtesy, reaps friendship, and he who plants kindness gathers love.
      Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.

      Comment

      • emujo2
        Service Manager

        1,000+ Posts
        • Mar 2017
        • 1580

        #4
        Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

        I know it only shows up in printing, but I think this is a copier failure..Try replacing the flyover clutch (drives paper over tray 4). I know many techs that missed this and spent tons replacing everything else..Can be a challange to get to as it's mounted on the rear inside frame. Even though it says controller jam, it's probably not a controller issue. E

        Comment

        • Albonline
          Service Manager

          1,000+ Posts
          • Sep 2008
          • 1098

          #5
          Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

          Originally posted by emujo2
          I know it only shows up in printing, but I think this is a copier failure..Try replacing the flyover clutch (drives paper over tray 4). I know many techs that missed this and spent tons replacing everything else..Can be a challange to get to as it's mounted on the rear inside frame. Even though it says controller jam, it's probably not a controller issue. E

          i think emujo2 is correct here, timing issue, causing unit to flip out. ps actuators sawed off?

          Comment

          • srvctec
            Former KM Senior Tech

            500+ Posts
            • Oct 2009
            • 827

            #6
            Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

            Originally posted by Synthohol
            hmm, c452.
            check the reg roller bushings for binding, also make sure driver is US not EU.
            have you printed from your laptop to see if its on the driver end?
            do you want to try firmware?
            Yeah, need to double check reg roller bushings but doesn't make sense it won't jam when copying. Hopefully their IT has checked/updated their drivers but not counting on it.
            As mentioned in my rather long post, that's the one thing I haven't done yet and regretted not doing is to check printing from my laptop.
            I guess I could reflash the latest F/W to it again as it already has the latest, D1.


            Originally posted by emujo2
            I know it only shows up in printing, but I think this is a copier failure..Try replacing the flyover clutch (drives paper over tray 4). I know many techs that missed this and spent tons replacing everything else..Can be a challange to get to as it's mounted on the rear inside frame. Even though it says controller jam, it's probably not a controller issue. E
            I might switch the horizontal transport unit clutch CL3 just to make sure it isn't the issue and I believe it can be done from the side as I've done it before.

            Originally posted by Albonline
            i think emujo2 is correct here, timing issue, causing unit to flip out. ps actuators sawed off?
            Not sure what you mean by "ps actuators sawed off". I'm guessing you mean the actuator tips worn down. Didn't check that but will although I've never seen any worn down at such a relatively low total count of 367K. That usually starts showing up around the million plus count.



            Thanks for the ideas and tips, everyone!
            Last edited by srvctec; 04-20-2020, 03:14 PM.
            Started in the copier service business in the fall of 1988 and worked at the same company for 33.5 years, becoming the senior tech in 2004 but left to pursue another career on 4/29/22.

            Comment

            • Synthohol
              Certified Konica Expert

              Site Contributor
              5,000+ Posts
              • Mar 2016
              • 5463

              #7
              Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

              the actuator under the fuser on the frame wears down and can cause false timing codes.
              We know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two.
              The medication helps though...

              Comment

              • srvctec
                Former KM Senior Tech

                500+ Posts
                • Oct 2009
                • 827

                #8
                Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

                Originally posted by Synthohol
                the actuator under the fuser on the frame wears down and can cause false timing codes.
                I could be totally wrong on this thinking but I thought those 2 sensors and the single actuator were only for detection of loop amount and don't come into play for jams.
                Started in the copier service business in the fall of 1988 and worked at the same company for 33.5 years, becoming the senior tech in 2004 but left to pursue another career on 4/29/22.

                Comment

                • Synthohol
                  Certified Konica Expert

                  Site Contributor
                  5,000+ Posts
                  • Mar 2016
                  • 5463

                  #9
                  Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

                  i had one a long time ago that the actuator was worn and caused an engine jam.
                  i believe the timing played a role.
                  the issue went away when set to thick(X), thats where i got the timing correlation when it stopped jamming.
                  when back to plain it jammed again.
                  i hope its that simple. he's gonna test from his laptop to eliminate a driver issue.
                  fingers crossed it just software/driver related.
                  We know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two.
                  The medication helps though...

                  Comment

                  • tsbservice
                    Field tech

                    Site Contributor
                    5,000+ Posts
                    • May 2007
                    • 7635

                    #10
                    Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

                    Originally posted by srvctec
                    I could be totally wrong on this thinking but I thought those 2 sensors and the single actuator were only for detection of loop amount and don't come into play for jams.
                    I'm also thinking loop sensors don't play with jam codes but you can test Synthohol idea to slow machine speed down and see what will happens.
                    Good luck mate
                    A tree is known by its fruit, a man by his deeds. A good deed is never lost, he who sows courtesy, reaps friendship, and he who plants kindness gathers love.
                    Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.

                    Comment

                    • srvctec
                      Former KM Senior Tech

                      500+ Posts
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 827

                      #11
                      Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

                      Originally posted by Synthohol
                      i had one a long time ago that the actuator was worn and caused an engine jam.
                      i believe the timing played a role.
                      the issue went away when set to thick(X), thats where i got the timing correlation when it stopped jamming.
                      when back to plain it jammed again.
                      i hope its that simple. he's gonna test from his laptop to eliminate a driver issue.
                      fingers crossed it just software/driver related.
                      Good idea on the thick setting. That's another option I hadn't thought of.
                      Oh, and I'm "he's", the OP.
                      Started in the copier service business in the fall of 1988 and worked at the same company for 33.5 years, becoming the senior tech in 2004 but left to pursue another career on 4/29/22.

                      Comment

                      • Synthohol
                        Certified Konica Expert

                        Site Contributor
                        5,000+ Posts
                        • Mar 2016
                        • 5463

                        #12
                        Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

                        TL;DR, lol J/K
                        i lose track sometimes.
                        We know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two.
                        The medication helps though...

                        Comment

                        • srvctec
                          Former KM Senior Tech

                          500+ Posts
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 827

                          #13
                          Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

                          I think it's fixed now. (I learned a long time ago to never say it's definitely fixed so I don't get bit in the a$$)

                          Just to clarify, here are photos of what I was getting (only when printing because I never got it to jam when copying).





                          I went back to the customer's office today and printed a 16 page 2-sided document from my laptop and it jammed after the 3rd page was out in the finisher so I knew it wasn't anything to do with the file or their network/drivers. Once I discovered the play in the exit drive gear below (I noticed wear on the previous call but not the play), I put a shim of paper on the flat of the "D" to remove the play and ran the same job as before, twice without issue.

                          Here is a video of part of what the issue was.

                          C452 Play In Exit Gear on Vimeo


                          Went back to the shop to get parts and replaced both gears, both bushings on the shaft, and the eject drive gear that always gets worn over the fuser that also drives the above gears. Had the customer test with her 15 page 2-sided print job and it jammed exactly the same as it did for me but on about page 8 or 9 out. Well crap!

                          The only thing left was clutch 3 so I replaced it as well and got two test jobs from the customer without issue. Makes no sense whatsoever that it wouldn't jam on copies but I gave up years ago trying to make sense of some copier issues.
                          Last edited by srvctec; 04-28-2020, 10:19 PM. Reason: Video won't show
                          Started in the copier service business in the fall of 1988 and worked at the same company for 33.5 years, becoming the senior tech in 2004 but left to pursue another career on 4/29/22.

                          Comment

                          • Synthohol
                            Certified Konica Expert

                            Site Contributor
                            5,000+ Posts
                            • Mar 2016
                            • 5463

                            #14
                            Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

                            thats an oldie!
                            i remember using pieces of a box cutter blade (the one where you can snap off a piece to get a fresh edge) to "Shim the D"
                            man that brought me back to the analog days and lift gears just hearing you say that
                            We know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two.
                            The medication helps though...

                            Comment

                            • allan
                              RTFM!!

                              5,000+ Posts
                              • Apr 2010
                              • 5445

                              #15
                              Re: C452 getting 99-01 jam from tray 3 ONLY when printing, NOT when copying

                              The bottom door front side latch just needs a slight crack to cause jamming on these.
                              After not being able to get the exit drive gears no more i resorted in drilling the gear centers out and installing brass bushings in there.
                              Whatever

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