bizhub 364e with C9403, CDFA1, C6753

[blackcat4866]

It was intermittent there for a while, now it won't clear even briefly.

All these codes refer to the CIS on the DF-701 document feeder.
The C9403 is an exposure lamp lighting failure CIS
The CDFA1 is an ASIC image error CIS
The C6753 is an ASIC clock is incorrect

Three of these codes point towards the CIS
Two of these codes point to the DSIPB (dual scan image processing board).

I've re-seated all the related CIS connectors all the way back to the DSIPB and the MFPB. The CIS lamp does light on initialization, but won't complete warmup without coding.

It's the first time I've seen any of these codes. I've never had to change a CIS on a KM. On Kyocera (Saturn), yes sure. Has anybody seen and resolved this group of codes? I'm personally leaning toward the DSIPB.
=^..^=

[wseyller]

Re: bizhub 364e with C9403, CDFA1, C6753

Short answer: Usually the ADF CABLE which is the cable that goes from the cis to the dual scan board is the issue.

Also make sure the timing belt on the cis cleaning roller is correct. The cis does a gain adjustment from the white sticker on the cis roller which has to be in a certain position. I would suggest comparing home position to another working model to be familiar. Service manual shows this otherwise. I had one where the belt skipped on the gear and got out of adjustment and got two of the codes you mentioned. I changed everything on that adf until I corrected the timing. Mostly though the cable causes the issue as they made the cable thinner now and doesn't get damaged anymore.

We now stock this cable in everyone's car stock.

Untitled.jpg

Also do a search in the knowledge base for: TAUS1201078EN

This will show you the position of the CIS roller for the home position. Too me it is easier to compare to another working ADF. Also this show voltage checks between the CIS module, CIS power supply, and adf control board.

[PeterG]

Re: bizhub 364e with C9403, CDFA1, C6753

As has already been mentioned, check the timing belt.
I fell for this one. Hook, line & sinker! I replaced everything, Cis, Cis power supply, DISPB, cables, the lot.
Embarrassingly, it turned out that the belt had jumped a couple of teeth.
It was a masterstoke of design for KM to cover the timing marks with a big plastic cir-clip.

[blackcat4866]

Re: bizhub 364e with C9403, CDFA1, C6753

Thanks everyone. I went out today with a DF that had gotten spiked somehow right through the deck and platen. I swapped in the CIS, and CISPU. No improvement. The DSIPB I scavenged came from a C364e, and looked quite a bit different but the connectors were the same so I took a risk. The machine would not even boot to an error, so I think I can safely say that the DSIPB I brought was incompatible.

I've overnighted the DSIPB for tomorrow morning, but will try the belt timing first. I can compare the timing to my "spiked" donor. Thanks for all the good advice. =^..^=

[wseyller]

Re: bizhub 364e with C9403, CDFA1, C6753

In the one case I had with the timing belt the customer had broken the frame where the hinge mounts and all the threads were stripped. My service manager looked at cost of adf and cost of frame and unfortunately I had to order the frame which took 2 months to get it from overseas. Customer used a loaner adf.

I'm not sure how common the timing issue is. I had to fully disassemble this adf anyway so I also replaced the belt and gears and the adf cable while I was in there. But it was definitely the cause if the issue in this case.

I have change several of the cable which is normally the cause. Never see the CIS or the CISPU go bad.

Those old style cables are crap and they are not easy to get out because of one of the white/clear plastic cable clamp that requires a lot to remove to unscrew it.

Lately I have been cutting this plastic clamp to get the old cable free from it. Then after removing the CIS you can get the cable connector in and out without too much disassembly. Then I slip the new cable into the slit I made into the plastic clamp.

[kingarthur]

Re: bizhub 364e with C9403, CDFA1, C6753

There's a tech bulletin ref the modified RADF cable..have had to replace 2 so far , this is the replacement cable p/no

A3CEN11711

[blackcat4866]

Re: bizhub 364e with C9403, CDFA1, C6753

Well it's fixed, and in a most unexpected way.

The white roller belt timing was correct, based on the donor DF. It took a while to figure out what you were talking about. I don't know if you can make anything of the pix, but here they are. On the front bronze bushing there are a couple of stamped notches, slightly off center that line up with the edges of the flat of the "D" shaft. On the back, the top of the cutout of the timing wheel is just aligning with the photointerrupter. The confusing part is that when you open the lower door, the roller turns. You have to peek through the gap with the lower door closed.

DF-701 white roller timing marks2.JPGDF-701 white roller timing marks1.JPG

I should explain one thing first. Each time I try one of these parts, if it doesn't fix it I re-install the original part.

I got the DSIPB today. It didn't fix it. Then I fought the cable out of my donor. I really didn't want to use it since the cable got caught under one of the wheels of my cart, and scraped through the insulation, breaking one of the black wires. Once repaired, the cable pinned out OK. How are you supposed to get to the screw through the strap?! After about 30 seconds of consideration I snipped off the strap. The cable is very secure with the metal grounding strap only. The cable didn't fix it.

So I've tried the CIS, CISPU, cable, and DISPB, each by itself. Now for the combinations. I got it on the third try. It needed the CIS, cable, and DISPB as a set. No other combination worked. A system error reset was required to clear the codes each time.

I won't pretend to understand how or why this was the right combination for my machine, but there it is. Thanks for the help! =^..^=

[wseyller]

Re: bizhub 364e with C9403, CDFA1, C6753

The timing belt is difficult. Because when you open the access door it moves the roller out of normally position. I have compared a working adf many times and finally found my own way to reference it by using a hole in the end of the shaft on the front side.

I have found that checking continuity on each pin of the cable doesn't matter. The bad cables still seems to test good with a multimeter. I think there is some interference somewhere inside the cables jacket that causes the issues.

I think of it as twist pair cables when untwisted will show continuity on each pin out but will cause an issue when untwisted. Different but just one example.

Yes to get the screw out of the strap requires a lot of disassembly. I have disassembled this adf model fully to replace the frame once. It sucks. That is why I mentioned cutting it to remove the cable. I don't think it to be all that important. The metal clamp is good enough.

[Don N.]

Re: bizhub 364e with C9403, CDFA1, C6753

blackcat4866 & wseyller,
I have a 224e with DF701 coding regularly at a cust that we did not sell machine to. (6752 37 times, 9403 85 times, 9404 2 times, DFA1 3 times)
No previous service history available. I loaned them a DF624. (Updated main FW, set svc mode for DF624, installed ADF FW again after DF624 was set).
I took the suspect DF701 to shop where we have a c224e and c364 (non-e). We have no b/w 4 or 4e series in shop. I would like to troubleshoot on the c364 since it's a high meter parts machine, but the comment about your scavenged DSIPB from a c364e has me wondering if I can use this c364 to t/s what I thought would be a feeder issue and assumed the DSIPB is not the issue, especially given the cable upgrade and timing belt comments.
How would you proceed? I'm assuming it needs to be powered up to check timing belt home position vs a good DF701, and it can't be assumed its in home pos. once the door is opened?

Thanks for a great thread... so far!

[blackcat4866]

Re: bizhub 364e with C9403, CDFA1, C6753

blackcat4866 & wseyller,
... I took the suspect DF701 to shop where we have a c224e and c364 (non-e). We have no b/w 4 or 4e series in shop. I would like to troubleshoot on the c364 since it's a high meter parts machine, but the comment about your scavenged DSIPB from a c364e has me wondering if I can use this c364 to t/s what I thought would be a feeder issue and assumed the DSIPB is not the issue, especially given the cable upgrade and timing belt comments.
...

You are right to have concerns. The DSIPB will be different/incompatible with both the color and the non-e machines.

blackcat4866 & wseyller,
... How would you proceed? I'm assuming it needs to be powered up to check timing belt home position vs a good DF701, and it can't be assumed its in home position once the door is opened? ...

It does not need to be powered up to check the timing. Based on the photos in the thread, you may be able to see what you need to. And yes it's not at home position with the lower door open. You have to remove the front cover and peek through the gap while the door is closed. Roll the motor through a cycle until the timing photos line up.

Knowing what I do now, and if I had had to order these parts, I would have checked the timing first, then replaced the cable, then CIS, then DSIPB in that order. But you'll have to test it on your bizhub 224e. Maybe the simplest approach would be to do the work on the DF in the shop, then swap it on for a test. If it fails take it back and try again.

Honestly I doubt very much that I would have resolved this issue without having a parts donor on-site. The customer was amazingly patient (I'd known them for a long time), even then it was the 5th or 6th call before it was resolved. For another customer it could have gotten contentious. =^..^=

[Don N.]

Re: bizhub 364e with C9403, CDFA1, C6753

Related codes were: 6752 (37 times) and 9403 (85 times), with a few 9404, DFA1, 6001, 6002 and 6104's sprinkled in.
We found the CIS cleaning roller was out of timing, per bulletin KBA01201078. Re-timed it, tested thoroughly, and generally irritated the heck out of the harness & re-tested to see if it might code. So far so good, so no new harness for now. Future replacement, if necessary will be easy enough in the field if I split the white clamp and partially remove the CIS to sneak the harness in.

Side note: I could never find the bulletin ref: TAUS1201078EN. Maybe that's a different region, not U.S.? KBA01201078 is the same thing... Thank you gentlemen!

[blackcat4866]

Re: bizhub 364e with C9403, CDFA1, C6753

Congratulations! =^..^=