Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

Billy,
On the first return trip to the site, the tech and service manager put the old dv unit in and the machine did come back to ready. But, the old DV unit was still also filled with toner so that's not necessarily a true statement.

But what happened after you ran skyshots with the old DV back in? Did it go back to saying toner empty or did work as it should?

Also, when you say that you "manually" added toner, do you mean you did it by hand or did you forcibly add toner via U132?

[KYO_OEM]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

Maybe checking from enclosed description can be helpfull in this case.
I would check the motor or pipe.

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

Maybe checking from enclosed description can be helpfull in this case.
I would check the motor or pipe.

KYO,

That's a very detailed overview of how the toner system functions in a Kyocera. Very detailed. I haven't really looked over it closely but I have a quick question:


- When they refer to "toner gauge", they're talking about the reading from the toner chip....correct?

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

I THINK I understand now. I always thought that the toner gauge (toner chip) went down by 1 based on the meter reading of the machine. But that wouldn't make much sense now that I think about it. Let me explain and hopefully I'm understanding correctly.

If the toner gauge (toner chip) dropped by 1 every time a page was printed, the reading would be way off because toner coverage differs from page to page. Instead the toner chip gage is the indication which is calculated by pixel count and rotation count of toner motor. That will give a much more accurate indication of how much toner is left in the cartridge.

Lastly, "toner empty" has nothing to do with the toner gauge...it's determined by the toner sensor.

Did I pass or fail?

PS - I'm assuming that the rotation of the toner motor is calculated by the encoder wheel?

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

The information KYO posted is getting more interesting by the second. This is a very complex process.

When the toner gauge is above the 4k count, the machines uses the rotation of the toner motor + pixel count to determine how much toner is in the cartridge. Once the toner gauge drops below 4k, the toner motor rotation is broken and at this point, the machine relies only on pixel count.

At 1000 pages remaining print gauge, “toner low “ message appears. And toner gage value changes to 5%.The "toner low" message in the toner gauge (chip) is detected by toner sensor in the DV. Once the toner sensor in the DV determines that the toner is low in the DV unit, you can print 20 pages after that and then the "toner empty" message will appear and no printing will be allowed.

[KYO_OEM]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

If remaining toner (toner gauge) will show value > 4000 and toner motor can`t forward enough toner, system will show toner empty also...
e.g.
(not real values, for better understanding only)
during 1 turn from motor 0,1mg toner would forwarded to DV unit
1mg = 0,1V
after 20 turns, in normal condition 2mg toner will reach the toner sensor from DV unit.(0,2V)
If now the value from toner sensor will increase about 0,1V only by >20 turns, system will skip the RFID informations.
Motor is turning > 50 turns in real if expected value not reached..and finally you will get the message "toner empty"..

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

If remaining toner (toner gauge) will show value > 4000 and toner motor can`t forward enough toner, system will show toner empty also...
e.g.
(not real values, for better understanding only)
during 1 turn from motor 0,1mg toner would forwarded to DV unit
1mg = 0,1V
after 20 turns, in normal condition 2mg toner will reach the toner sensor from DV unit.(0,2V)
If now the value from toner sensor will increase about 0,1V only by >20 turns, system will skip the RFID informations.
Motor is turning > 50 turns in real if expected value not reached..and finally you will get the message "toner empty"..

Got it. Keep posting this kind of information. I love it.

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

I've been seeing a lot of posts lately about a machine showing toner empty when the cartridge is not empty. I really haven't run into this problem but because of the information that KYO posted, I decided that I wanted to know as much as I could about the toner add system from both a mechanical and electronic standpoint.

I understand it from a technical sense after reading the information that KYO posted, but, for me, seeing is believing.

So, I took one of the toner motors out of a Kyocera 3551ci and it's a real bitch to get out. Anyone ever replaced one of these? Anyway, I wouldn't suggest replacing the toner motor on a hunch. You better be sure that's the problem before replacing. It is a real pain in the ass to replace.

There's a couple of different ways I can think of for telling if the toner motor is working or not. Probably the easiest is to put a mark (with a permanent marker) on the coupler gear of the toner cartridge and then forcibly add toner via a simulation and see if the black mark moved.

Lastly, I wanted to see the encoder wheel and the photo sensor in the toner motor housing that's used by the machine to determine how many grams of toner is being added. Here it is. See below:

PS - You can also use your volt meter for checking the toner system - (Supply voltage, ground and signal wire.) These can be found on the front PWB of the machine. See manual for specifics.

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

One last thing. I made it sound like it's the end of the world to replace one of the toner motors. That's not the case but it's more involved than I would like. Let's put it that way. Cheers.

[masterchill]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

Now i just posted this in another thread and sounds like you may have a similar issue. When you did the dv unit was the machine unplugged? I know they had issues with these machines that people were installing these parts with them still plugged in and the new parts would not register correctly and there would be issues. I am not saying just turned off you have to fully unplug these machines.

[ChrisG]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

Now i just posted this in another thread and sounds like you may have a similar issue. When you did the dv unit was the machine unplugged? I know they had issues with these machines that people were installing these parts with them still plugged in and the new parts would not register correctly and there would be issues. I am not saying just turned off you have to fully unplug these machines.

I believe we have found the solution but still waiting on the new toner assembly to show up that was backordered from Kyocera. The feed shaft auger within the toner supply unit was snapped off after an oversupply of toner to the unit bound it up. (Tech induced)

We will hopefully know more after next week. Try to avoid this at all costs as the machine itself is practically framed to remove the toner supply assembly. NOT FUN! And have plenty of room available to spread out parts, supplies, covers, boards etc.

[copydocinc]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

Sounds like we had the same problem with similar, but different machines. Have a read.
This is from a 406ci toner problem.

Ok, so I found the problem, but still concerned.
I completely disassembled the whole machine to get to the toner distribution assy.
It is the tubes, augers, springs, gears, belts, shutters etc. that move the toner to the developer units, after the toner motors have dropped toner form the toner cartridges down into this unit.
As you install the toner crtg(any color) it opens a little shutter that allows toner to drop into the top of the distribution unit.
When you install the developer units they open a similar shutter that allows toner to drop into the top of the developer unit, from the bottom of the distribution unit.
In between the toner crtg and the developer unit there is an spiral auger in a tube that moves the toner over, about 2 inches, and then down another tube using a spring, that is moved up and down
to help drop the toner down, the spring is moved up and down by the auger that has an offset shaft on the auger, that moved the toner over to it.
This is all one unit that simultaneously moves all 4 toner colors at the same time, with sponges between each color, so they don't mix with each other. Each color uses up about 4 inches of the auger area.
So now there is a gear on the end of the auger, of course outside of the unit, but part of the assembly. That gear has a flat area that matches up with the flat area on the end of the shaft of the auger.
There are a couple of other gears that drive this gear as well as one gear that drives a long belt to the other side of the unit that end up driving the toner waste area of the transfer belt unit.

Anyway what happened is in the black toner area of the auger, the toner hardened up(possibly because it's the closest to the fuser unit?) and stopped the auger from turning, causing the gear teeth to grind
down quite a bit and eventually the flat area on the end of the auger wore down as well as the flat area on the inside of the gear. So the gear was turning, with a little grinding from teeth wear, but the auger
shaft was not turning, which made it so no toners of any color could drop into the developer units. This caused the series of toner empty or toner low messages, since this machine measures toner levels by how
much toner gets dropped into the developer units.

If you've lasted this long reading my novel, then you night as well hear the rest.
Finding all this out and reassembling the machine(a miracle) took nearly 20 hours. I could do it in maybe 10 hours now. So many parts have to come off and some metal frames also have to be removed just
to get this toner distribution unit out. I took the time to do this, because of curiosity, not practicality. It certainly was not worth the time for moneys sake.
The reason I'm still concerned is that I don't really know what caused the black toner to harden up so bad inside the auger area. I think close proximity to the fuser, but a little part of me wonders about the new
black developer unit possibly having some sort of problem, causing it all to back up into the auger area and compress together, but it sure seemed like the toner had hardened form melting. I dunno.
The ultimate fix I suppose would be to replace the toner distribution unit, but I'm not going to take it apart again. Not worth the money and also could happen again if the developer unit caused it.
Take that for what it's worth and hang it in your tool case.
By the way. This was the toughest unrepair job I've ever done, bit a little fun too. Sooooo many parts I didn't know if I would get it back together.
Thanks for reading