Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

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  • blackcat4866
    Master Of The Obvious

    Site Contributor
    10,000+ Posts
    • Jul 2007
    • 23008

    #16
    Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

    Originally posted by BillyCarpenter
    ... I know this has been discussed already, but I'm wondering why this is happening? Is the developer just worn inside the unit? Has the develper simply lost it's magnetic properties for whatever reason?

    In other words, by changing the settings that you're talking about, is this just compensating for worn developer?

    I know you said something about machines with low usage, but in my case this is a high usage machine.
    The developer doesn't lose it's magnetic properties, it loses it's tribo-electric effect ... that is static electrical properties ... when the resin wears off of the individual developer particles. If it lost it's magnetic properties it would just fall off of the developing roller, piling up in the bottom of the machine.

    If quality is restored by a stir, it still can produce the tribo-electric effect, so in my opinion, not compensating for worn developer.

    I don't have an adequate explanation for a high volume machine performing in this way. Perhaps they do long runs of K only, leaving the colors un-stirred?

    Originally posted by BillyCarpenter
    ... Edit: I know from back in the day that one way I used to compensate for worn DV to is increase the target value @ toner sensor. When the developer became worn, adding more toner to the DV unit would compensate for this. To, be honest, it always concerns me to run these new machines out of specs. Maybe it's just best to replace the DV units in question??
    I'll agree on this. Increasing toner density just makes the machine run even dirtier.

    Back when Mita developer came in bottles, not units, spiking the developer (adding a scoop extra) replaced some of the developer lost during normal usage, but typically did not gain you much time. Replacing that developer is the better choice.

    Originally posted by BillyCarpenter
    No, when you select DV refresh, there's no option to select a single color. You can forcibly add toner to one color via simulation but I'd be careful with that as you have no way of knowing exactly how much to add and it could become way over-toned.
    Correct. =^..^=
    If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
    1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
    2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
    3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
    4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
    5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

    blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

    Comment

    • BillyCarpenter
      Field Supervisor

      Site Contributor
      10,000+ Posts
      • Aug 2020
      • 16394

      #17
      Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

      Originally posted by blackcat4866
      The developer doesn't lose it's magnetic properties, it loses it's tribo-electric effect ... that is static electrical properties ... when the resin wears off of the individual developer particles. If it lost it's magnetic properties it would just fall off of the developing roller, piling up in the bottom of the machine.

      If quality is restored by a stir, it still can produce the tribo-electric effect, so in my opinion, not compensating for worn developer.

      I don't have an adequate explanation for a high volume machine performing in this way. Perhaps they do long runs of K only, leaving the colors un-stirred?



      I'll agree on this. Increasing toner density just makes the machine run even dirtier.

      Back when Mita developer came in bottles, not units, spiking the developer (adding a scoop extra) replaced some of the developer lost during normal usage, but typically did not gain you much time. Replacing that developer is the better choice.



      Correct. =^..^=

      blackcat,

      I enjoy our conversations and learn a lot. When I said, lost "magnetic" property, I wasn't talking about losing it entirely...only becoming weaker. I never heard the term: triboelectric effect but I looked it up and you're right. The developer isn't losing any of it's magnetic properties, it's losing charge because the the DV hasn't been stirred in a while. Correct me if I'm wrong.


      However, calibration does much more than simply stir the developer so I'm unsure if a good stir is what's actually correcting the under toning problem.


      PS - I buy machines from wholesalers and I assume they've been sitting in a warehouse for long periods of time without use and when I test them out, they don't have the undertone problem.
      Adversity temporarily visits a strong man but stays with the weak for a lifetime.

      Comment

      • blackcat4866
        Master Of The Obvious

        Site Contributor
        10,000+ Posts
        • Jul 2007
        • 23008

        #18
        Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

        Originally posted by BillyCarpenter
        blackcat,

        ... When I said, lost "magnetic" property, I wasn't talking about losing it entirely...only becoming weaker. I never heard the term: triboelectric effect but I looked it up and you're right. The developer isn't losing any of it's magnetic properties, it's losing charge because the the DV hasn't been stirred in a while. Correct me if I'm wrong...
        Correct. Tribo-electric effect only happens when stirred for a minimum amount of time, and quickly dissipates when not stirred.

        Originally posted by BillyCarpenter
        ... However, calibration does much more than simply stir the developer so I'm unsure if a good stir is what's actually correcting the under toning problem...
        I'm sure calibration helps, but its the stirring that does the trick, however you have to get it to happen.

        I started a thread not too long ago about a Konica Minolta PRESS C1060 that gave magenta developer high density errors two days after a developer change. It turned out that the enduser ran 30K black only prints and not a single color image. The cure comes from an unexpected quarter. In situations that the enduser runs high volumes of low density fill the primary transfer blade can wear prematurely for lack of lubrication. KM has a function to create an "exit toner band", that is, every 50 pages the machine puts down a 1.5% fill band of each color onto the belt to lubricate the primary transfer belt blade. A unexpected side effect of making this exit band, is that it must stir the color developers a little, every 50 pages. Just what I needed!

        PRESS C1060 with errors

        Originally posted by BillyCarpenter
        ... PS - I buy machines from wholesalers and I assume they've been sitting in a warehouse for long periods of time without use and when I test them out, they don't have the undertone problem.
        If I was a wholesaler and I knew anything about copiers, just prior to delivery I would plug in the machine and run a quick 50 pages to get the developer agitated. I don't know that's what they do ... but I would. =^..^=
        If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
        1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
        2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
        3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
        4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
        5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

        blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

        Comment

        • BillyCarpenter
          Field Supervisor

          Site Contributor
          10,000+ Posts
          • Aug 2020
          • 16394

          #19
          Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

          Here would be my counter argument:


          If a simple stir of the DV unit is correcting the problem, why does calibration need to be run? You could simply print 20 pages (or pick a number) and the DV would get a good stir and the problem would correct itself?
          Adversity temporarily visits a strong man but stays with the weak for a lifetime.

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          • blackcat4866
            Master Of The Obvious

            Site Contributor
            10,000+ Posts
            • Jul 2007
            • 23008

            #20
            Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

            Yes it would work, but that would mean that the enduser would have to make a conscious effort to make a certain percentage of color images in-between the black ones. I can't imagine that happening. =^..^=
            If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
            1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
            2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
            3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
            4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
            5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

            blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

            Comment

            • BillyCarpenter
              Field Supervisor

              Site Contributor
              10,000+ Posts
              • Aug 2020
              • 16394

              #21
              Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

              Originally posted by blackcat4866
              Yes it would work, but that would mean that the enduser would have to make a conscious effort to make a certain percentage of color images in-between the black ones. I can't imagine that happening. =^..^=

              I see what you're saying, but have you ever tried to run some color copies to see if it actually clears up the under-toning problem? You have more experience than me with this problem. I'd really like to know if the problem is an idle color DV unit or is calibration compensating for some other problem.
              Adversity temporarily visits a strong man but stays with the weak for a lifetime.

              Comment

              • blackcat4866
                Master Of The Obvious

                Site Contributor
                10,000+ Posts
                • Jul 2007
                • 23008

                #22
                Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

                Originally posted by BillyCarpenter
                I see what you're saying, but have you ever tried to run some color copies to see if it actually clears up the under-toning problem? You have more experience than me with this problem. I'd really like to know if the problem is an idle color DV unit or is calibration compensating for some other problem.
                If you walk up to the machine and manually do ONLY a developer refresh, than make some prints (and the issue is resolved), then your developer refresh solved the issue.

                If you do a color calibration, the machine automatically does a developer refresh, among other things.

                Does it really matter how you get the desired effect? I guess I don't know where you're going with this. The purpose of color calibration is to continually compensate for variables like developer density, drum wear, transfer belt wear, charge roller wear, among other things. It's perfectly OK to compensate. That's what calibration is for. =^..^=
                If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
                1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
                2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
                3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
                4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
                5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

                blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                Comment

                • BillyCarpenter
                  Field Supervisor

                  Site Contributor
                  10,000+ Posts
                  • Aug 2020
                  • 16394

                  #23
                  Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

                  Originally posted by blackcat4866
                  If you walk up to the machine and manually do ONLY a developer refresh, than make some prints (and the issue is resolved), then your developer refresh solved the issue.

                  If you do a color calibration, the machine automatically does a developer refresh, among other things.

                  Does it really matter how you get the desired effect? I guess I don't know where you're going with this. =^..^=

                  Here's where I'm going and I could be totally off-base. If the problem isn't a simple stir of the DV unit and we're making the machine run calibration more often than it's set from the factory, what effect is this having? Calibration can increase the DV bias, toner ratio and other things. Is it causing the machine to run dirtier? I don't know. It may not cause any undesired effects. Just thinking out loud.
                  Adversity temporarily visits a strong man but stays with the weak for a lifetime.

                  Comment

                  • blackcat4866
                    Master Of The Obvious

                    Site Contributor
                    10,000+ Posts
                    • Jul 2007
                    • 23008

                    #24
                    Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

                    Originally posted by BillyCarpenter
                    Here's where I'm going and I could be totally off-base. If the problem isn't a simple stir of the DV unit and we're making the machine run calibration more often than it's set from the factory, what effect is this having? Calibration can increase the DV bias, toner ratio and other things. Is it causing the machine to run dirtier? I don't know. It may not cause any undesired effects. Just thinking out loud.
                    All those consumables will have to get changed eventually. I like that the machine has the ability to compensate for these variables. Otherwise we would be back in the analog days where every 20K images we'd be tweaking lamp intensity, developer bias, and primary charge to maintain image quality. It's pretty nice that the machine can do this all by itself. =^..^=
                    If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
                    1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
                    2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
                    3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
                    4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
                    5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

                    blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                    Comment

                    • BillyCarpenter
                      Field Supervisor

                      Site Contributor
                      10,000+ Posts
                      • Aug 2020
                      • 16394

                      #25
                      Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

                      Originally posted by blackcat4866
                      All those consumables will have to get changed eventually. I like that the machine has the ability to compensate for these variables. Otherwise we would be back in the analog days where every 20K images we'd be tweaking lamp intensity, developer bias, and primary charge to maintain image quality. It's pretty nice that the machine can do this all by itself. =^..^=

                      I suppose you're right. Sorry for being a pain in ass. I was more curious than anything.
                      Adversity temporarily visits a strong man but stays with the weak for a lifetime.

                      Comment

                      • blackcat4866
                        Master Of The Obvious

                        Site Contributor
                        10,000+ Posts
                        • Jul 2007
                        • 23008

                        #26
                        Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

                        Originally posted by BillyCarpenter
                        I suppose you're right. Sorry for being a pain in ass. I was more curious than anything.
                        You're making my brain hurt. I don't usually get to think this much. LOL =^..^=
                        If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
                        1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
                        2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
                        3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
                        4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
                        5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

                        blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                        Comment

                        • tsbservice
                          Field tech

                          Site Contributor
                          5,000+ Posts
                          • May 2007
                          • 8018

                          #27
                          Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

                          Originally posted by blackcat4866
                          If you walk up to the machine and manually do ONLY a developer refresh, than make some prints (and the issue is resolved), then your developer refresh solved the issue.

                          If you do a color calibration, the machine automatically does a developer refresh, among other things.

                          Does it really matter how you get the desired effect? I guess I don't know where you're going with this. The purpose of color calibration is to continually compensate for variables like developer density, drum wear, transfer belt wear, charge roller wear, among other things. It's perfectly OK to compensate. That's what calibration is for. =^..^=
                          Off topic I know.

                          We have some KM bizhub C224e doing a tons of BW printing and zero color output. And yes I know it's wrong model for this customer. The point is that, every time I check the machine - bird page coming great, solid halftones CMYK are great, no developer stirring here as you know machine has only basic calibrations and that's all. Brilliant engineering job they made with this model!
                          A tree is known by its fruit, a man by his deeds. A good deed is never lost, he who sows courtesy, reaps friendship, and he who plants kindness gathers love.
                          Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.

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                          • BillyCarpenter
                            Field Supervisor

                            Site Contributor
                            10,000+ Posts
                            • Aug 2020
                            • 16394

                            #28
                            Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

                            One last thing.


                            My problem machine has a different problem than the one blackcat describes and it's bugging me because I can't wrap my mind around the problem.

                            This customer prints color every day. And a lot of it. Yet, the colors looked washed out @ Magenta and Cyan. I can run DV refresh and calibration and it clears the problem right up. But it returns days later. The customer doesn't even realize the problem because all they print is "spot" color. But I know the problem is there.

                            I'm not gonna change the calibration rate on the customer's machine. I'm gonna change both DV units and bring the problem DV units back to the shop and install in my test machine. These DV units only have about 100k on them. If I find anything, I'll let everyone know.
                            Adversity temporarily visits a strong man but stays with the weak for a lifetime.

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                            • BillyCarpenter
                              Field Supervisor

                              Site Contributor
                              10,000+ Posts
                              • Aug 2020
                              • 16394

                              #29
                              Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

                              Originally posted by blackcat4866
                              You're making my brain hurt. I don't usually get to think this much. LOL =^..^=

                              You'll have to overlook me, I drive everyone crazy with a bunch of questions. Just ask slim and Ken. I must have asked them a million questions about networking. I don't mean anything by it. Just my way of learning and you've been a huge help. In fact, with everything I've learned from you about the color machines, I'm starting to feel like a real copier tech again.
                              Adversity temporarily visits a strong man but stays with the weak for a lifetime.

                              Comment

                              • Samanator
                                Service Manager

                                Site Contributor
                                VIP Subscriber
                                500+ Posts
                                • Sep 2017
                                • 579

                                #30
                                Re: Kyocera 3051ci white lines Dev units going bad?

                                In my technical life, I have always gone with the attitude that there are no stupid questions, just sometimes mean or wiseass answers. Or sometimes answers that unknowingly had the wrong facts.

                                For years I have fearlessly and without remorse asked what some others might think was a stupid or obvious question.

                                It has served me well as I have learned a lot.

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