3051ci colors very inaccurate

[jayg30]

Hello,

We have had a Kyocera 3051ci for a few months now. Our company (and our partner) use a lot of blue in our logos and documents. What I have noticed is that the Kyocera is DRASTICALLY different looking in color (specifically the Blue/Cyan) than what we get sent back from professional print shops and from our older Konica Minolta C353. The C353 and the print shops are extremely close. ALSO, every color to some degree shows a darker shade along one side of the color blocks. This shows even on the test print pages, it is almost like a very minor gradient.

This isn't just one print shop, or one document, we have multiple shops with multiple documents. Our partner company is very large (whole marketing division) and have marketing material printed for them. They have a defined logo that uses a Pantone color. We have taken the raw logo file using Photoshop to print it and it is off. Trying to adjust the Cyan just seems to cause other issues. Another example is there is a light blue in a form that when printed on the 3051ci is basically grey.

I've done testing with the company we lease from. They thought it might have to do with the documents themselves (RGB vs CYMK) and other things. None of this really helped. Also the same documents printed on the Konica came out fine. I know that comparing to what you see on screen doesn't mean much if it isn't calibrated and stuff. In this case I'm not comparing to what is on screen, but what is printed. I've also printed Pantone colors and compared, again they are way off. They have not been able to make the color come close or get rid of the slight "gradient".

My understanding is that if we want "dead on" color we need a Fiery. And I think I get that. But I was expecting the color to be relatively close without a Fiery. Not light blue showing as grey!

Am I off base here? Should they replace the machine? Will it even matter? Am I "out of luck" basically?

I have a DLSR and understand how to white balance things so I can perhaps get some pictures of what I see. It is very obvious in person.

[tee]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

Have you tried U485 and changed the color table to another style machine?
Will get you more blue.

[jayg30]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

Have you tried U485 and changed the color table to another style machine?
Will get you more blue.

You mean the option where it "emulates" other machines colors, right?

They did try that and at the time it didn't seem to resolve the issue.
However there were other issues happening at the time, so perhaps I should try it again.

[jayg30]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

I changed it to use the Kyocera mode. It doesn't really help. It still isn't close.

I took a picture with my cellphone. Not the best way to show it, but I think people will be able to see the issue.
PICTURES HERE
The caption explains it, but it is from left to right, Konica, Kyocera (wih KYO mode), Kyocera (with Konica mode).

[darry1322]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

Try this : go to your printer preferences -> Imaging Tab -> color reproduction dropdown menu : then try printing with the different settings.

[blackcat4866]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

You've identified Kyocera's Achilles heel. Without the Fiery, color matching isn't great. Most off-the showroom floor Konica Minoltas, Toshibas, and Sharps will do better. Color Profiles can help a little, but not like some magic bullet.

Kyoceras last great color machine was a re-badged KM. =^..^=

[tmaged]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

I would save the forms as .pdf to thumb drive & print right at the machine. This eliminates the driver changing any colors on it's own. Then I'd do all the calibrations & print a 20% gray page from a thumb drive. That's what I always start my color baseline with. I've had color samples that look fine, then if print the gray page, you can tell it's off.
Also, I'd try all the color profiles from the other vendors. Last time I used them, there was a pretty big variation in the colors

[MFPTech]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

You are right, you do need a fiery and on the top of that you do need to perform color management and be very good at it. Didn't Konica print pink?
I agree with blackcat4866. Who the heck made the decision to buy a Kyocera color machine for what you are trying to do in the first place... Sorry to say that, but yes, you are right, basically you are out of luck.

[AlbertK]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

Hi, Have you tried printing the documents as images? This can be set in the advanced tab when printing is selected on the pc.
I had a very similar problem on a TA-250ci that printed greys instead of Cyan and had lines through the greens....this setting worked wonders.

[jayg30]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

Thanks everyone. I had tried the various color reproduction settings in the driver before, but I tested them again (on both Kyocera and Konica profiles). Although it does have an effect of the colors, that light blue still just stays grey. And they still don't really come close to being accurate.

I had previously tried the adjustments section to try and add cyan. At the time that worked to get it relatively close for one image, but ended up causing problems for others down the line.

I just tested out "Color Optimizer" plugin. That is the only thing that seems to be able to even get relatively close to fixing the issue. I selected the light blue color in the document I posted photos of. The RGB is 219:229:241. I selected lightness and saturation and printed the color optimizer table/grid to "match" the color. It didn't have an exact match to my eyes, but B3 was close (lightness:-2, saturation=3). I reprinted the document and it actually looked blue instead of grey.

I don't fully understand color optimizer yet. I'm not sure if it only effect colors that register to that RGB value, or if it has a sweeping effect on all colors, or maybe just colors within a range of that RGB value. I'm also not clear if there would be a way to "force" all computers/users on a company domain to use these settings. Having users have to do this when they print would be a nightmare (especially when the Konica Minolta just works). They would have this built in and used every single time.

[jayg30]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

You've identified Kyocera's Achilles heel. Without the Fiery, color matching isn't great. Most off-the showroom floor Konica Minoltas, Toshibas, and Sharps will do better. Color Profiles can help a little, but not like some magic bullet.

Kyoceras last great color machine was a re-badged KM. =^..^=

Thanks, that was what I was afraid of.

[MFPTech]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

Replace all the drums and devs.
Try firmware update (sometimes Kyocera releases special firmware for color issues).
Do SM 410, 412, color registration and calibration in that order.
Make sure you are using a Postscript Driver (Kyocera calls it differently) and 1200 dpi resolution setting on the driver.
If that doesn't help i would consider a fiery and a spectrometer or densitometer.
Last, i will send logos for print on a press.
Cheers,

[jayg30]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

You are right, you do need a fiery and on the top of that you do need to perform color management and be very good at it. Didn't Konica print pink?
I agree with blackcat4866. Who the heck made the decision to buy a Kyocera color machine for what you are trying to do in the first place... Sorry to say that, but yes, you are right, basically you are out of luck.

I will say that the Konica (C353) has been pretty much dead on with colors. Was a bit shocked at how accurate it was actually.

Well, basically, a sales person comes in when a company needs a machine. People in Companies tend to want to save money. Most don't understand any of this stuff, and most people don't have intimate understandings of various makes/models of MFP's. A sales person tells you they will have no problem meeting the color needs and they are cheaper! What CEO/CFO/Manager/etc do you know (outside the industry) that understand color tables, what a fiery is, what pantone is, what an icc profile is, and so on? They expect color to print the same everywhere. It is hard enough explaining to people why what they see on a crappy uncalibrated TN screen isn't necessarily what the colors will look like when printed.

[MFPTech]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

Printing using RGB color space is simply wrong. Printing uses toner to create colors, hence YMCK must be used! To force all users to print using the same driver settings you either use a print server (not a good idea for production printing) or customize and package the driver and give it to users to install it locally on their computers. I have supported many print shops that used Copiers for small jobs and been through the nightmare of not maching colors, copier limitations and file issues. I even had to take DTP courses on evenings using my own time and money. Conclusion, there is a reason why a press costs million of dollars and a copier costs at least 100 times less. Logo and copier just don't go together. Hope my brutally honest feedback helps

[jayg30]

Re: 3051ci colors very inaccurate

Replace all the drums and devs.
Try firmware update (sometimes Kyocera releases special firmware for color issues).
Do SM 410, 412, color registration and calibration in that order.
Make sure you are using a Postscript Driver (Kyocera calls it differently) and 1200 dpi resolution setting on the driver.
If that doesn't help i would consider a fiery and a spectrometer or densitometer.
Last, i will send logos for print on a press.
Cheers,

Thanks. I know the firmware was just recently updated (they noted color changes, but we saw no difference).
I can't remember if we did 410 and 412. I know color registration and calibration was done, as well as a few other things. Didn't seem to help.
The KX drivers are in use, version 6.2.0827. Also downloaded the 6.2.113 since that was the latest on the website to do the tests yesterday.

I think the only answer is a fiery or a different machine all together. There are documents being printed that don't contain logos and aren't THAT color sensitive, but when blue prints grey...that isn't going to work!