Ricoh MP C3500/4500

[E Winter]

If the drum unit is close to the PM cycle I would not just clean the charge roller. I'd also remove the drum and clean the blades, wax brush with a vac. If the drum surface looks healthy you might have a good chance to double the lifetime. The new charge rollers are unfortunately a step backwards - you can't really clean them with proper liquids. I just use water or glass cleaner for those.

In the end it is a design error from Ricoh. If they had increased the diameter of the charge roller and especially the cleaning roller, we would not have this problem. I don't understand why they used the foam roller either.

Probably because they prefer to keep the lifetime close to the specified PM cycles^^ btw - larger diameters aren't automatically better. The MPC6000 PCU's are struggeling with the same issues.

[Lotec]

Lotec, You are talking like you're a specialist
If it was so simple i think they allready modified this
But if you are so sure that this is the solution, than I would advice you to go apply for a Job by RICOH JAPAN section: ENGINEERING/ DEVELOPMENT

Yeah, That would have been kind of cool. But I need 1 more year at the university to become an engineer in mechatronics.
I stopped and took a year of each of the following subjects: history, psychology, biology and chemistry. And from January I'll do a semester in operating systems, and after that I'll take a semester in programming... and then I want to take web programming and I also need a year studying networks, network management and network security.

And I find it hard to believe that Ricoh would just hire a regular engineer. I bet (hope) they all have a masters degree in their field.
After all we used an old Ricoh Aficio 400 in mechatronics class (both the machine and the finisher) - and that stuff has quite a lot of science involved. I'm sure Ricoh have some very advanced design software that is specialized for their need? We only used solid works and 3d studio at school - and the most complex thing we designed was a pistol grip drill. It was kind of interesting to see the parts in the CAD software and then produce the parts on the CNC milling machine and end up with a working product. But a drill is like a toaster compared to a copier.
So I'm not saying it is easy to design a copier. Not at all.. but when they have a team of spesialists - they should have solved this by now. Or at least have an "easy fix" until they have solved it. The easy fix is of course a charge and cleaning roller kit. At a cheap price.

So my critisism comes because:
1. I'm frustrated because I spend my day (and evening and night) changing drums..
2. Because they have not tested the machine thorough under all conditions. We order pallets full of drums.. if they didn't experience the problem during testing the test criteria/spectrum have been to small.
3. They have not started to sell the charge roller/cleaning roller assy.
4. They have not come up with a solution to a problem on existing machines, that we will have to maintain for years to come..

And I have looked at the design of for example Kyocera, and I see they have larger diameter on the charge and cleaning roller. And it just keeps working - day in and day out. We have never had this problem with Kyocera.
So I'm kind of thinking... why do they not buy a Kyocera, and study their solution - and see if they can transfer that solution to fit in Ricohs PCUs - and keep the form factor the same. Then they could announce that the B22322xx and D02922xx PCUs have gotten new part numbers due to part modification to improve reliability.

They should have a link on their web page for grumpy pissed techs - that went straight to the system engineers at Ricoh

I think Ricoh have great products - but there are 3 problems with the design of their smaller B/W models, and 2 problems with their smaller color range. I don't work on bigger machines than the MP9001 and the MPC5000 at the moment.
I might add that with the MP6001 and up.. I have no problems with the design at all. I like it. My dream would have been that the smaller models (AF1018, 2018, MP2XXX, AF450/1045/2045/3045/MP4000) was in fact a scaled down version of the MP6001.
I've been fixing the MP6001 generation back when it was analog and called FT6645. And I have seen it been improved for every version ever since. I didn't like the new thin hot roller though.. the thick ones lasted at least a million pages..
All I miss with this model is quicker mainenance. Be able to open the fuser with only 4 screws, and design the cleaning web so it can be changed by the user.
If you look at the smaller machines with their fusers, PCUs and paper feed/paper lifting mechanism.. there is room for improvements. And they have had plenty of time to do them. Even a new machine have weaknesses they could have fixed years ago.
And again.. we sell some HP printers.. and they go 225 000 pages between every service.. and we're there only every 225 000 pages. They just work. So smaller machines can have longer service intevals too.
Simple fuser.jpg
On the MPC machines... I like all parts of the machine (like the doc feeder, the paper feed, the transfer belt, transfer roller, laser, touch panel and user/tech experience) except the PCU unit, and the fuser is overly complicated/fidly. If they modefied it like the MP6001 and add a cleaning web that the used can change.. that would be sweet. And make it last 600K. I'm not sure the minor quality issue between a fuser belt and a fuser roller would be such a problem on these machines anyway. It is office machines, and not like the Pro C900s who's competing against offset presses. 99% of our customers don't even use a quality paper for color copiers. It should look OK, but the price is more important.

And now that we hardly ever sell b/w machines, it is more important that the color machines are highly reliable. We get more service calls on color machines - but we are still the same number of techs. That gives us a lot of work to do. And if you change the magenta drum on monday, and are back on thursday changing the black.. they may not be all that happy with their machine... and on friday you have to change the cyan developer because of faint areas ...
When we have more then enough to do - the customers have to wait even longer. And somewhere we have to start cutting corners.. or start working 16 hour days.

but hey.. that's just my two cents..
And if nobody put their two cents in, how can you get change?

[largo]

I agree with you lotec.....
But i work more than 10 y at ricoh

one thing i can give you is that... (and confirmed by other countries)
that those lines (mpc2500,mpc3500,mpc2800,mpc4000 series) are comming when
we are heading freezing temp.
In my opinion it has something to do with temp/humidity

in my country (and others i think also) we have a big workload
we have a verry lot mpc calls with lines now

like you said: "if you change black pcu, the day after is the c pcu,...."

why ricoh JAP doesn't do something????? i don't know.
They don't know a solution,...?


It's not fun for the customer but there is nothing much we can do

but on the other side........ I have lines on those machines and lots of done the last weeks ....but some of them it is the firts call in 1 year, and those customers are happy if they see an engineer just 1 time in a year

wouldn't you? or every 2 months for jams .... you can choose

greetz

[spaniel ears]

If the drum unit is close to the PM cycle I would not just clean the charge roller. I'd also remove the drum and clean the blades, wax brush with a vac. If the drum surface looks healthy you might have a good chance to double the lifetime. The new charge rollers are unfortunately a step backwards - you can't really clean them with proper liquids. I just use water or glass cleaner for those.




Probably because they prefer to keep the lifetime close to the specified PM cycles^^ btw - larger diameters aren't automatically better. The MPC6000 PCU's are struggeling with the same issues.

I get the feeling the new charge rollers have a bit of un-cleanability built into the design of the coating - we'll see about that. I haven't got one to try in hot soapy water at the moment, only the old ones, but if anyone has please let us know the results. And you're right of course about stripping and cleaning the pcu as well as the charge roller Jan, I forgot to mention that.

[nmfaxman]

I have found that a simple and cheap ISP windshield fluid tends to disolve Ricoh toner with little effort.
On charge rollers I just wipe them down with a dry rag after cleaning them, and I have made them last 3X the book life.

[E Winter]

like you said: "if you change black pcu, the day after is the c pcu,...."

That's why it make sense to take a look at the other PCUs as well and, depending on the theoretically remaining lifetime, swap or clean them even if the quality looks fine. If I change a faulty black pcu and I see that the color drums have 60k and 2 years on the counter I don't just leave this machine without further inspections. A proper cleaning of a PCU including vaccing out the cleaning unit/wax brush area doesn't take longer than 10 minutes (maybe not at the first try).

I think the MPC (first gen) PCU's are running very well if the customer doesn't print much high coverage stuff. The second gen MPC units got a higher PM yield that is a bit too optimistic sometimes.

[Lotec]

That's why it make sense to take a look at the other PCUs as well and, depending on the theoretically remaining lifetime, swap or clean them even if the quality looks fine. If I change a faulty black pcu and I see that the color drums have 60k and 2 years on the counter I don't just leave this machine without further inspections. A proper cleaning of a PCU including vaccing out the cleaning unit/wax brush area doesn't take longer than 10 minutes (maybe not at the first try).

I think the MPC (first gen) PCU's are running very well if the customer doesn't print much high coverage stuff. The second gen MPC units got a higher PM yield that is a bit too optimistic sometimes.

Yeah. They run good in the summer..

As the price for every copy is lower and lower it is more important that parts make it to their expected life.
If we change parts before they've done their expected lifecycle, the company doesn't make any money on the machine.
This is a trend that I think we will see more of in the future. I think that in the end we will see more and more machines where the customer can change most of the parts. To pay for a tech will be too expensive in the end. They must expect to wait longer too, if they pay less.
There will still be a need for techs, but only a fraction of the number we have now. When the customes is expecting to pay 1,2 (us) cent or less for a b/w page on a color copier.. changes need to be made - if companies are still going to make money. And as the copiers start to get more and more advanced in the network area.. more techs quit and starts working with networks where the pay is better.
I see places where they have started with 3 tech types: starting with low skill techs doing firmware upgrade, remove paper jams, charge feed rollers and clean the machine. Then there are educated techs that will do harder stuff, and you have "techs" doing the network part. In worst case scenario you will have 3 "techs" visiting the same machine before the problem is solved.

We now get refund from Ricoh if a part does not make it to the expected lifetime. But I think it would be to push it if we start to change more parts then needed. But I see the advantage. I've started to vacuum out the area under the mylar under the developer roller too, when I'm at the customers. But if we're very busy we don't have time.

Now I just change PCUs and get refunds. But it takes time to change them too. Not the changing in is self, but getting to and from the customers. We're about to hire new techs now - so I hope the time problem will be a thing of the past too. But then again... to many techs give a smaller bonus.. so I think we'll just grow and the work for every tech will be the same.

One thing we have tried out with success is to add an air moisturizer/humidifier in the room. If the room can be kept at a humidity that is so high that the customer almost start to get curly copypaper - then almost every PCU make it to the expected lifetime or more.
I expect Ricoh to come up with a fix for the PCU problem.
We (almost) only have problems with the PCUs in wintertime - when the climate is colder, and the air humidity gets low.
It's like the machines are working tip top in the summer, and then in the winter they unleash all the problems they have saved me from in the summer.

But with the refund from Ricoh I don't care that much anymore. I do the jobs I can during the day, and if I get paid for it I fix more machines in the evening.
hmm.. these pain killers give me a mellow personality

[E Winter]

In worst case scenario you will have 3 "techs" visiting the same machine before the problem is solved.

Don't forget the "McGyver" techs who needs to cover every tasks.

One thing we have tried out with success is to add an air moisturizer/humidifier in the room. If the room can be kept at a humidity that is so high that the customer almost start to get curly copypaper - then almost every PCU make it to the expected lifetime or more.
I expect Ricoh to come up with a fix for the PCU problem.
We (almost) only have problems with the PCUs in wintertime - when the climate is colder, and the air humidity gets low.

Funny that I really can't seconded that (even if I believe you) - maybe the winter in germany isn't strong enough but we've quite a low air humidity when it's drycold outside and people fire up their heaters up to the max. The only thing I recognoize are slightly weaker solid colours due to the increased transfer performance.

I've noticed that most of the PCU-related troubles I've seen is related to the wax bar/brush. This mechanism seems to apply too much wax on the drum because there's quite a wax buildup on both cleaning blades. This - in turn - can lead to an improper cleaning performance, printout quality issues and - we all have seen this: dirty charge rollers. Reducing the wax apply to a minimum could maybe help to improve the reliability. I was thinking about playing around with adjusting this "spring thingy mechanism" that is pushing the wax bar to the brush roller but I actually never tried it because I don't really mind to clean the units every now and then. Like I said I almost have no troubles if the customers are running NOT a too less volume and NOT too much toner coverage.

[sostek]

hey guys the pn for charge roller cleaner pads is 027935 or 026734 from Katun. The primary reason for the charge rollers getting dirty is a failing cleaning blade. does anyone have a source for blades?

[XXX]

Exactly right. I knew it.

The reason so many tech's failed when servicing the FT5535 machines was because they figured the could clean the charge roller and be out the door in under a half hour rather than take the time to understand why the charge roller was getting dirty with toner.

The same goes for the new machines and this nonsense about wax bars being the reason for a dirty charge roller is silly.

The wax bars may be the reason the 3260C drums are short lived but they don't cause dirty charge rollers.

[E Winter]

The same goes for the new machines and this nonsense about wax bars being the reason for a dirty charge roller is silly.

I don't agree. There's mostly a high amount of wax-particle buildup on the first and second cleaning blade in these drum units that can degrade the cleaning performance at some point. The dirt on the charge roller contains a mixture of wax and toner - sometimes it's mainly toner (=charge roller is coated with toner colored dirt) and sometimes it's mainly way (=charge roller is coated in something gray/white looking dirt).

I can shoot a few pics next time I'm gonna clean a unit.

[spaniel ears]

If it's not wax that's stuck to the charge roller then what is it XXX?

[teebee1234]

It is wax XXX, even Ricoh tech support says so.

[zed255]

I've taken the wax bar out of a few units once they reach the point of needing cleaned a second time and it seems to get a fair bit of extra life out of them without the charge roller getting the build up. I figured no harm since the unit would otherwise have been considered toast anyhow.

[iscott]

I have looked for the wax bar (briefly) but have not seen it. I assume it is in the PCU and not on the part that contains the charge roller and cleaning brush.