MX-4101N compressions

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  • blackcat4866
    Master Of The Obvious

    Site Contributor
    10,000+ Posts
    • Jul 2007
    • 22997
    #1

    MX-4101N compressions

    It's got a fairly strange combination of symptoms: The customer complained of "lines". I'd try to scan a sample, but the anomaly is fairly subtle, and seen mainly in the fine line work, grids or text.

    They're really compressions crossfeed. Not on the first page but all pages after.
    - There is one compression per page
    - They are always 58mm or 73mm from the leading edge with single example of 24mm.
    - It only affects B&W images, not color. And not the black in a color image.
    - It only affects LTR paper, from any tray. No compressions on LTR-R, legal, or ledger.
    - The developed primary transfer image on the belt is pristine (no compressions).
    - The compression can be seen on unfused (emergency stopped) pages that have not yet reached the fuser.

    So I've narrowed it down to happening after primary transfer but before fusing. That leaves us with registration and secondary transfer.

    Other things that I have noticed but may mean nothing:
    - There is a texture pattern from the inside of the transfer belt that repeats at 9.13mm intervals. Almost like the belt was running over a contaminated metal roller, but 9.13mm circumference leads us to a roller diameter of 2.9mm. Could there really be a 2.9mm roller in the primary transfer assembly? And could it make any difference?

    Does any of this sound familiar? =^..^=
    If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
    1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
    2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
    3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
    4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
    5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

    blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=
    Tags: belt, black, color, compressions, customer, fuser, paper, scan, side, texture, transfer, work
    • ptrflrs
      Glorified Parts Swapper

      100+ Posts
      • Dec 2010
      • 192
      #2
      Re: MX-4101N compressions

      Originally posted by blackcat4866
      It's got a fairly strange combination of symptoms: The customer complained of "lines". I'd try to scan a sample, but the anomaly is fairly subtle, and seen mainly in the fine line work, grids or text.

      They're really compressions crossfeed. Not on the first page but all pages after.
      - There is one compression per page
      - They are always 58mm or 73mm from the leading edge with single example of 24mm.
      - It only affects B&W images, not color. And not the black in a color image.
      - It only affects LTR paper, from any tray. No compressions on LTR-R, legal, or ledger.
      - The developed primary transfer image on the belt is pristine (no compressions).
      - The compression can be seen on unfused (emergency stopped) pages that have not yet reached the fuser.

      So I've narrowed it down to happening after primary transfer but before fusing. That leaves us with registration and secondary transfer.

      Other things that I have noticed but may mean nothing:
      - There is a texture pattern from the inside of the transfer belt that repeats at 9.13mm intervals. Almost like the belt was running over a contaminated metal roller, but 9.13mm circumference leads us to a roller diameter of 2.9mm. Could there really be a 2.9mm roller in the primary transfer assembly? And could it make any difference?

      Does any of this sound familiar? =^..^=
      Weird that its only happening on b/w but the speed difference from color might make the difference. Have you checked the transfer belt drive gear on the rear of the belt unit? They tend to strip out and skip sporadically on the D-shaft.
      jesus loves you! (everyone else thinks you're an assh*le)
      street cred: CompTIA A+ & Network+ Certified; Konica Minolta Gold Seal x2,
      Konica Minolta Outward ASSociate, Ricoh, Sharp, Lexmark trained

        Comment

        • blackcat4866
          Master Of The Obvious

          Site Contributor
          10,000+ Posts
          • Jul 2007
          • 22997
          #3
          Re: MX-4101N compressions

          Secondary transfer? I rotated the motor and the belt unit manually, but probably not at copy speed. There was enough drag from the motor that I don't suspect the drive on the rear frame.

          The belt unit deserves a second look. Maybe the timing belt? =^..^=
          Last edited by blackcat4866; 07-27-2013, 01:42 AM.
          If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
          1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
          2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
          3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
          4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
          5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

          blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

            Comment

            • blackcat4866
              Master Of The Obvious

              Site Contributor
              10,000+ Posts
              • Jul 2007
              • 22997
              #4
              Re: MX-4101N compressions

              I just got this message from a friend and thought it worth sharing. I haven't tried it yet, but it makes perfect sense when you read the explanation:

              Yep. See that alot actually.

              Your examples of when and how it happens are spot-on.

              There are 2 very common causes of this problem. The best way I can describe the look of it, is the image is compressed into an almost fuzzy version of itself. You can still see what its supposed to be, but its as if an image is an inch wide and has been compressed down to about half that..... all fuzzy looking.

              The 2 most common causes are:

              - Sluggish/slipping primary or secondary belt units
              - Incorrect motor velocity/speed settings

              Basically, you've already confirmed the primary belt is OK. The secondary belt unit if its not rotating at its correct speed, or is slipping due to belt rubber 'old age', the paper basically stalls for a split second as it goes past the primary belt, leading to a compressed image on the paper because the paper stops very briefly as it goes past.
              Its hard to tell just by hand turning the secondary belt unit, but if you look at the secondary belt rubber and it tends to be loose and not semi-tight against the transfer roller within the belt unit..... thats your biggest clue.
              On the C-Jupiter 2's, you can install any of the previous model secondary transfer belts too. Basically the first series MX secondary belt unit is exactly the same as the second series MX..... it just has a slightly different rubber compound on the belt material, but it does not effect the quality or performance at all. So if you have any secondary belt unit which looks like the one on your 4101, just swap it over. It unclips from underneath.
              Sometimes its the opposite.... the primary belt can 'stall' for a split second during rotation, also leading to the compressed image issue, but that is only noticeable every few pages as it only stalls once per full rotation. As the secondary belt is 'stalling' the issue is seen on each page as the distance of the belt is almost per page length.

              The other thing could (and has been proven before) to be fuser motor timing. If the fuser motor velocity/speed setting is not right, as the lead edge hits the fuser rollers, the paper buckles for a spilt second as it passes the transfer roller, also leading to a compressed image. You can tweak these settings in sim 48-06 under the FSM setting for color or mono.

              The reason you are not getting these same compression issues on different paper, is all to do with the load on the transfer belt, so thats why I'm leaning towards the secondary belt unit as your problem.
              From experience, rebuilding the belt unit with new belt & roller kits is OK and works, but we always prefer to use a new belt unit.
              Ignore the lines on the inside of your belt. Thats always caused by a contaminated roller (usually one of the end follower rollers) and as the belt rotated around, it leaves marks on the inside of the belt. It just happens to leave marks at its own roller diameter, which eventually causes an overlay type marking and its not a true reflection of the rollers at all. It wont effect your print quality.

              =^..^=
              If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
              1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
              2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
              3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
              4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
              5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

              blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                Comment

                • ptrflrs
                  Glorified Parts Swapper

                  100+ Posts
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 192
                  #5
                  Re: MX-4101N compressions

                  Originally posted by blackcat4866
                  Secondary transfer? I rotated the motor and the belt unit manually, but probably not at copy speed. There was enough drag from the motor that I don't suspect the drive on the rear frame.

                  The belt unit deserves a second look. Maybe the timing belt? =^..^=
                  yeah, try taking the gear u used to turn the belt off and have a look at the inside.
                  jesus loves you! (everyone else thinks you're an assh*le)
                  street cred: CompTIA A+ & Network+ Certified; Konica Minolta Gold Seal x2,
                  Konica Minolta Outward ASSociate, Ricoh, Sharp, Lexmark trained

                    Comment

                    • blackcat4866
                      Master Of The Obvious

                      Site Contributor
                      10,000+ Posts
                      • Jul 2007
                      • 22997
                      #6
                      Re: MX-4101N compressions

                      Ok, I have a couple of theory questions:

                      1) Does the primary transfer belt stop or slow between images? (I suspect No.)
                      2) Does the secondary transfer stop or slow between images? (probably same answer.)
                      3) Does a black-only image pass faster than a full color or single color image (assuming same media type)?
                      If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
                      1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
                      2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
                      3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
                      4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
                      5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

                      blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                        Comment

                        • igi
                          Service Manager

                          1,000+ Posts
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 1507
                          #7
                          Re: MX-4101N compressions

                          Originally posted by blackcat4866
                          Ok, I have a couple of theory questions:

                          1) Does the primary transfer belt stop or slow between images? (I suspect No.)
                          2) Does the secondary transfer stop or slow between images? (probably same answer.)
                          3) Does a black-only image pass faster than a full color or single color image (assuming same media type)?
                          1-does not slows down
                          2-does not slows down
                          3-same speed

                            Comment

                            • blackcat4866
                              Master Of The Obvious

                              Site Contributor
                              10,000+ Posts
                              • Jul 2007
                              • 22997
                              #8
                              Re: MX-4101N compressions

                              Thanks igi.
                              If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
                              1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
                              2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
                              3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
                              4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
                              5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

                              blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                                Comment

                                • blackcat4866
                                  Master Of The Obvious

                                  Site Contributor
                                  10,000+ Posts
                                  • Jul 2007
                                  • 22997
                                  #9
                                  Re: MX-4101N compressions

                                  I replaced the secondary transfer belt, and it did resolve the compressions problem. Interestingly, the new secondary transfer belt fit more loosely on the pulleys than the old belt. I can theorize that the gripping of the outer surface is more important that the belt tension on the pulleys or the drive from the timing belt. For example, the secondary transfer belt follows the primary transfer belt due to the outer surface contact, more than any drive applied to the inside of the belt.

                                  I was unable to locate a pulley with "D" shaft anywhere in the secondary transfer unit. Each pulley is either an idler, or pinned to the shaft. If slop in the pins was a problem, I could have used hot glue to take up some of that slack between the pin and the pulley. I've done that before when we would get drive blurs from the greaseable registration clutches where it was pinned loosely to the registration roller. And it can be pulled apart when dis-assembly is required. Fortunately for me, I did not need to take it to the next level.

                                  Regardless, it's fixed. Thanks for the advice. =^..^=
                                  If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
                                  1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
                                  2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
                                  3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
                                  4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
                                  5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

                                  blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                                    Comment

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