Rape me over the coals no more

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

Alright, I need to vent and moan and justly so.

Last Tuesday I sold a guy two HP Laserjet 2100 printers in near new condition printing perfect prints for $40. The guy bought them, packed them up, and went away.

Five days later I get a call that he is upset and wants to return them because they didn't come with toner cartridges...which if they did I would have lost over $100 on that sale.

So I rechecked the craigslist ad and nothing was ever said about coming with a toner. His defense was that I never said they didn't come with toners.

I said look, they were several hundred new, and even today at $20 a pop they are a steal. I refused to return them and credit the customer.

I got several threats, threatenting to turn us into the sales tax department b/c he didn't see sales tax on the receipt (flat rate sale), threatening to turn into the attorney general, threatening to sue in court, and threatening to post comments on craigslist saying how bad our company is.

I do have to admit I was really calm and professional on this call. I simply stated you can do whatever you like but you still got an amazing deal on the equipment and wouldn't be able to find anything cheaper on laser.

I also stated that if we find anything written that we'd construe as inaccurate and libel, that we'd seek damages.

Now I've dealt with customers and worked retail as well over the years. I have to say that this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever had to personally deal with.

I don't fear any of the threats, and if someone wants to seriously spend a fortune and years over $40, then by all means bring it on.

I've had an independent person review the ad and we seem to be in the clear, it just is such a waste of time and energy.

Here's the ad we posted. If you want, look at it, comment, share your own stories, etc.

Laser Printer & Copier various models speeds

Thanks guys/gals.

[OMD-227]

The advertisment seems OK with me, but anyone not fully understanding how a printer works would automatically assume that they had everything included, as your advertisment states the machines are working & include testprints. Even I would assume they would include the cartridge if it didnt mention that it was not included.

What I dont get is how the guy gets back to you 5 days later. How could he not know anytime within that 5 days?? Why wasnt the printer checked by the guy upon pickup?

In all honesty, stand your ground on this. $20 for a recent laser printer is pretty good no matter which way you look at it. If he wants to drag you through the courts, that will be his loss, not yours. Cant see you getting into any trouble over this, but your life would have been alot easier if the advertisment stated what was included and what was not.

But then again, not everything is free these days huh?? Starter cartridges in new machines is a classic example. Heck, I only got 1/4 tank of fuel in my new $25K jetski upon pickup!!

[blackcat4866]

It's crazy what people get bent over.

I had a Samsung user keep bringing his $99 laser printer back for warranty calls, because it wouldn't feed paper. The first time, I grabbed a used cartidge out of another machine and it tested fine. The Chinese refills he was using were so tight that the main motor wouldn't turn. That was warranty call #1.

Warranty call #2 went the same way, except I stood right in front of the guy and demonstrated that an OEM cartridge works, crappy refill won't. I tell him that there won't be any additional free warranty calls for crappy refill cartridges. He leaves. I think I've been pretty generous up to now. He's got two warranty calls on something that wasn't the manufacturer's fault. They couldn't anticipate him buying crap cartridges.

Warranty call #3 is not really a warranty call. He's really mad. He says 4 new cartridges could not possibly be bad. I tell him to bring it in, but if it's still a cartridge issue, it's $89.00 non-refundable. He brings in the machine. You guessed it. Four bad refill cartridges. He pays the $89.00 and leaves even more mad. I didn't even sell him the cartridges. Remember me? I'm the one who told you not to use those cartridges, twice.

Now, for that $9.00 per cartridge that he saved ... oh wait, those are all unusable cartridges. So he lost the cost of all four cartridges plus the service call. The refiller would not take the cartridges back or provide replacements (bought on the internet, no store address, ...). And he couldn't use the machine for the first six weeks, and he's still mad. Wasn't that fun! =^..^=

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

The advertisment seems OK with me, but anyone not fully understanding how a printer works would automatically assume that they had everything included, as your advertisment states the machines are working & include testprints. Even I would assume they would include the cartridge if it didnt mention that it was not included.

What I dont get is how the guy gets back to you 5 days later. How could he not know anytime within that 5 days?? Why wasnt the printer checked by the guy upon pickup?

In all honesty, stand your ground on this. $20 for a recent laser printer is pretty good no matter which way you look at it. If he wants to drag you through the courts, that will be his loss, not yours. Cant see you getting into any trouble over this, but your life would have been alot easier if the advertisment stated what was included and what was not.

But then again, not everything is free these days huh?? Starter cartridges in new machines is a classic example. Heck, I only got 1/4 tank of fuel in my new $25K jetski upon pickup!!

Good points. I think we will specifically mention no toners included with them in the future. I remember having a business law class once and they talked about the "reasonable person test/standard." Unfortunately some people aren't very reasonable.

I remember being in high school and getting a 3 year old car and they wouldn't give me a full tank of gas with it. I was 16, got my own car loan for $10k b/c I worked a lot of overtime even in high school. That was a lot of money back then, and still is; but I lived and the car lasted about 10 years before I got rid of it. I don't feel so bad now considering what you paid for your skis. Is that a special version or engine that they cost that much or is that pretty standard. That's more than the boats I look at the bass pro shop and cabelas.

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

It's crazy what people get bent over.

I had a Samsung user keep bringing his $99 laser printer back for warranty calls, because it wouldn't feed paper. The first time, I grabbed a used cartidge out of another machine and it tested fine. The Chinese refills he was using were so tight that the main motor wouldn't turn. That was warranty call #1.

Warranty call #2 went the same way, except I stood right in front of the guy and demonstrated that an OEM cartridge works, crappy refill won't. I tell him that there won't be any additional free warranty calls for crappy refill cartridges. He leaves. I think I've been pretty generous up to now. He's got two warranty calls on something that wasn't the manufacturer's fault. They couldn't anticipate him buying crap cartridges.

Warranty call #3 is not really a warranty call. He's really mad. He says 4 new cartridges could not possibly be bad. I tell him to bring it in, but if it's still a cartridge issue, it's $89.00 non-refundable. He brings in the machine. You guessed it. Four bad refill cartridges. He pays the $89.00 and leaves even more mad. I didn't even sell him the cartridges. Remember me? I'm the one who told you not to use those cartridges, twice.

Now, for that $9.00 per cartridge that he saved ... oh wait, those are all unusable cartridges. So he lost the cost of all four cartridges plus the service call. The refiller would not take the cartridges back or provide replacements (bought on the internet, no store address, ...). And he couldn't use the machine for the first six weeks, and he's still mad. Wasn't that fun! =^..^=

Wow! Those mystery generics are more trouble than they're worth...and so are their buyers. This guy did mention something about wanting to buy refill toner bottles...gee I wonder when I'll be getting that call from him. I can forsee it now.

Customer: you said you'd take the printers back if they didn't work, well they don't.
Me: well bring the machines to the shop with the toners

Then I'll find out that they are some mystery x brand of crappo toner cartridges and have to explain that there will still be no refunds. I like what my one friend said, take them back but charge a 100% restocking fee...:-p

[zed255]

For the $40, I'd likely have taken them back and resold them after rewording my advertisement. Or up the price and simply include a toner. Why wouldn't you sell them with a toner anyhow? I'd rather pay a higher price and have a ready to use piece of equipment, IMHO. Also you can include an OEM or other tried and tested refill and likely avoid returns until they try to put a crap toner in some 1000's of pages down the road.

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

For the $40, I'd likely have taken them back and resold them after rewording my advertisement. Or up the price and simply include a toner. Why wouldn't you sell them with a toner anyhow? I'd rather pay a higher price and have a ready to use piece of equipment, IMHO. Also you can include an OEM or other tried and tested refill and likely avoid returns until they try to put a crap toner in some 1000's of pages down the road.

You do have very good points. We actually had been contemplating buying toners for all the machines and upping the price. Actually we debated it several times. All our printers are really good refurbished, some basically new when we got them. We have several storage units full so we've been trying to get rid of them just to save on the high storage costs.

We had feared that if we got toners, that we might get stuck with some of the printers and tie up cash for the toner cartridges. We may end up going that route and following your suggestion. We just weren't sure how potential customers would handle a higher price even though it includes a new toner...know what I mean?

Thanks and I'll let you all know of any updates.

[jonezy999]

You could always give the customer a price with and a price without cartridges. Another things is u could order the cartridges on demand if your supplier is on the ball.

[jonhiker]

Most people think that when they are buying a printer it comes with ink, at least a "starter" cartridge. I looked at the ad and it did not say either that it comes with or without ink. That should be specified and will keep issues like this at a minimum.

[DWise]

FWIW, isn't it "RAKE over the coals" and not RAPE? haha

[Ducttape n Glue]

Years ago when I worked with my father in his company, we fabricated material handling equipment, everything from industrial conveyor systems, to lifting tables to overhead cranes, well you get the idea. One thing I never forgot what my father said was " OSHA says you have to make things "fool" proof, remember , here we try and make things "idiot" proof. Try as we might , people still managed to remove safety features, guards, shut-offs and all types of things , and of course managed to hurt themselves. One guy tried to sue us after he lost his finger in a system. Actually got all the way to court and the judge called the attorneys up and basically asked the prosecuting attorney if he really wanted to continue this, they settled it right there. We won all court fees, attorneys fees and back payments on the equipment plus interest. He, the 9 fingered idiot, had removed 2 safety features to make it easier to operate.
Moral of the story: assume everyone is at least a fool and some will be idiots.

PS. Be more specific in your craigslist ads. We mention if it comes without a cartridge and also mention how much one will cost about, usually I get a Staples type price. I find alot of buyers then ask me if I can supply a cartridge and they usually end up buying it from me when they pick up the printer/copier.

[NeoMatrix]

Laser Printer & Copier various models speeds[/URL]

Thanks guys/gals.

Re :Advertisement.
Maybe you should have worded "machines are in as-is condition" in the adverstisement.

GDM

[Stirton.M]

This didn't happen to be that fool who was trolling the Cannon forum about his supercharged injet a few weeks back that bought these off of you by any chance was it? This just screams of that guy for some reason.

Advertised as such or not, $20 each is a steal...

Maybe he is upset because perhaps the new cartridge is out of his budget range...I honestly cannot say....mountain out of a molehill. Hard to say if I would simply tell him to get stuffed or take them back...depends on his initial manner when he first complained of the problem. If he was civil at first, give him back his money...if he was an ass.....show him the hand....

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

You could always give the customer a price with and a price without cartridges. Another things is u could order the cartridges on demand if your supplier is on the ball.

Very good points. I do try to have the add on sale of cartridges when I can. This guy along with the past 7 printer sales were where the buyer had a strong desire to do refilling of cartridges. So on all of them I gave them my refill warning speech, as if it would make a difference. I think I just need to learn how to get customers that aren't the cheapest mo fo's on earth. ::shakes head::

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

Most people think that when they are buying a printer it comes with ink, at least a "starter" cartridge. I looked at the ad and it did not say either that it comes with or without ink. That should be specified and will keep issues like this at a minimum.

Very good points also. There's always something that comes along where ya have to be more specific, amend a contract, or get a waiver signed. I guess I assume too much that people can differentiate an open box refurb with no cartridges for $20 and a brand new machine with starter cartridges for several hundred bucks.

I think some of the problem is consumers have gotten so used to dictating what they want and having companies start to cave in and meet their demands. Remember to just say no sometimes.

Once upon a time we did business with a handshake, and it worked for most people for quite some time. Then years ago things went bad and we hired a lawyer to draw up standard contracts. There's just no honor, common sense, and working issues out anymore I guess.

Thanks for the tips.