Gun Control

[Coptech]

Re: Gun Control

I like how you think you know me as an individual. I'm all for the swift hand of justice with an eye-for-an-eye perspective in certain circumstances. I just don't think the solution is to give every Tom, Dick and Jane a gun in the hopes that it may deter violence.

I have not suggested arming everyone. Just enough to provoke second thought.

Registering guns from here forward? What would that really solve? There are enough currently to wipe out the population. Are they supposed to wear out and disappear over time like a used car or something? Talk about a Pollyanna attitude.

You got me on the video games. I have played but I just don't get them. My kids, my wife, that is a different matter. But I do believe that with every improvement in graphics, etc., they do blur the lines between reality and fantasy. Call me what you want on that one. My daughter tried an excuse on me once that she was late for school because "she dreamed she woke up and went to school". That was reality vs. fantasy. Guess what, they still counted her as late.

I'm not going to tackle religion with you but you do not have me correctly positioned on that one.

I'm not going to try and mail you a gun either but every time I do ship something, at the counter they ask me "Is there anything liquid, fragile, hazardous, or perishable" I answer no and they take me at my word. If I did send you a gun, you would probably just put your eye out and I would have to feel guilty about that. No thanks! I sleep just fine with my clear conscience as it is.

Are we through playing yet?

[Akitu]

Re: Gun Control

I have not suggested arming everyone. Just enough to provoke second thought.

Registering guns from here forward? What would that really solve? There are enough currently to wipe out the population. Are they supposed to wear out and disappear over time like a used car or something? Talk about a Pollyanna attitude.

You got me on the video games. I have played but I just don't get them. My kids, my wife, that is a different matter. But I do believe that with every improvement in graphics, etc., they do blur the lines between reality and fantasy. Call me what you want on that one. My daughter tried an excuse on me once that she was late for school because "she dreamed she woke up and went to school". That was reality vs. fantasy. Guess what, they still counted her as late.

I'm not going to tackle religion with you but you do not have me correctly positioned on that one.

I'm not going to try and mail you a gun either but every time I do ship something, at the counter they ask me "Is there anything liquid, fragile, hazardous, or perishable" I answer no and they take me at my word. If I did send you a gun, you would probably just put your eye out and I would have to feel guilty about that. No thanks! I sleep just fine with my clear conscience as it is.

Are we through playing yet?

I have not suggested arming everyone. Just enough to provoke second thought. Registering guns from here forward? What would that really solve? There are enough currently to wipe out the population. You're arguing against yourself. There are enough guns to wipe out the population, yet more continue to be produced, sold and used. Why not just give everyone who's not currently armed a free weapon? Just to level the playing field. They don't even have to be new or surplus production, restore some old muskets and send them out to the masses as the great American forefathers wanted when they drafted up the second amendment of your constitution.

Registering them means they can be tracked to an original owner, who should have been responsible enough to a) not lose it in the first place/keep it secured; b) file the appropriate paperwork for sales and transfers of ownership. Registration does nothing to deter those who want to get one but can't through the legal means, but it does ensure proper ownership and usage of the items from those who want to own and maintain them by legal means. I agree with your point that the core of the problem lies in the punitive system itself, there are far too many slaps on the wrist and loopholes to be exploited.

Video games aren't something everyone understands, same with computers, routers, the internet as a whole, or any number of subjects. Nobody can be an expert on everything, but to flatly shut it out without making an effort to learn or understand is essentially the definition of willful ignorance. Ignorance is not a bad thing inherently, it simply means one is not aware. Willful ignorance on the other hand, is the reason why society as a whole is so dumbed down. To say they blur the lines between fantasy and reality is an ignorant statement, when the truth is the goal of game designers lately is immersion. They don't want to confuse the player into not knowing what is real and what is not, they want the player to feel as though the world they created has a complete and natural feel to it.

I do hope that you gave your daughter the benefit of the doubt, dreams are scary powerful things. Look up sleep paralysis for some really terrifying examples. It's a good example of how the line between fantasy and reality can be blurred actually. Dreams can be so vivid that sleepers can do anything from murder to have an orgasm. If there is any argument for blurring of reality, look to the human mind and not some flashy animations on a TV screen.

There's another thread here for debate on religion, it had some lively discussion going on in its hay day, all in all I'm a little sad it tapered off into nothingness; once the petty squabbles got settled there was some good theological discussion.

Did you ever stop and think what goes on behind the scenes at the post office? Do you really think they just take your word and then throw it on a truck to go on its merry way? Packages can be inspected no differently from your luggage at the airport, just a simple pass through an x-ray and they can determine what it really is in the same amount of time it took to walk out of that very same post office. Now that's not saying every post office rifles through packages and x-rays every single thing, but there is a central sorting facility involved somewhere along the line in most cases. The reason for example, behind the anthrax scare of the days of recent past, was because it could be shipped in a standard letter envelope, which is not subject to the same precautions as a large package. They typically pass through a mass sorter that scans the address on the front of the envelope to go on their way (see: How it's Made on the discovery channel, it's an older episode so you may have to do some digging).

Any gun you could send me that would be legal for me to own would be a long barrel rifle, as handguns are insanely hard to come across by legal methods in Canada unless you happen to be law enforcement. Anyone seen with anything small enough to be concealed is typically instantaneously questioned. There are numerous safety courses that have to be passed as a prerequisite to owning any type of gun here as well; coupled with some of the best hunting areas in North America, it makes it so the only purpose to have one essentially is hunting. To assume I would injure myself would be making the assumption I also believe in an omniscient sky deity who planted dinosaur bones in the ground to trick us into thinking the world is much younger than it appears. Anyone in possession of common sense could reasonably handle a gun without incident.

[Coptech]

Re: Gun Control

Given the admitted weakness in our justice system, I still believe that unsurety is the biggest deterrent to crime. To over simplify, If I gave you a box containing a dozen donuts and then told you one of them was poison, how many would you eat? Speaking for myself, and call it gutless if you will, I would leave the whole box. That in a nutshell is the pause before breaking into a house that I describe. It is as simple as that. The last thing I want is a gun in the hands of someone poorly trained to handle it.

You watch the news and every once in awhile, they will have a "turn in your guns amnesty program". Most turned in were stolen or reported stolen. Having it properly registered doesn't mean you will know who broke in and took it from a gun safe.

The story on my daughter? You will laugh over this one. She was of driving age, my son was not. She took him to school as they attended the same school. My son called upset because they could not wake her and he lost his "perfect attendance" that was very important to him. I ran home, checked to make sure she was OK, and took him to school and pleaded his case for him. At the same time, I told them that there would be no excuse for her tardiness. They changed the report so that he kept his attendance record intact. Now my daughter is a great kid. She was just "burning the candle at both ends and had a bad boyfriend at the time". She was a straight A student and other awards. The principal called me and asked if he could let her off this one time. I said no way and that she needed to suffer the consequences of her actions as a life lesson. (Which was Saturday school) Fast forward to the night before the scheduled Saturday school...A bad breakup with the earlier mention dumbass bad boyfriend put her in an emotional tailspin and I got a call that they had taken her from her work to the Emergency room. I went to Saturday school with her and sat in the desk behind her all morning to complete her punishment while making sure she was OK.

Look, as far as the video game, Kids have been acting like their heroes since the beginning of time. Whether it be flying around the house with a cape as superman, batman, to whatever. They grow out of it...I guess most do. My contention is that the "weaker minded" may have difficulty separating themselves from the game. Especially when it becomes more real. Is it the game's fault? No, but the game has the same guilt in that incident to that weaker mind than the gun does in the crime he or she commits. Here in the US, a bar can be held responsible for serving a drink to someone that has already had too much to drink if they get in an accident. I just think it is a matter of time before one of our wonderful attorneys successfully makes the winning argument that a game manufacturer can be held liable under the same thought process. It doesn't make it right, It is only more proof that our justice system is broken.

We are not as far in disagreement as you might think. Thanks for the debate on this. Everyone else got quiet. I hope they have been entertained.

[ZOOTECH]

Re: Gun Control

Yep, so far - the same as the mentioned thread "There's another thread here for debate on religion, it had some lively discussion going on in its hay day, all in all I'm a little sad it tapered off into nothingness; once the petty squabbles got settled there was some good theological discussion."

[Tonerbomb]

Re: Gun Control

Yep, so far - the same as the mentioned thread "There's another thread here for debate on religion, it had some lively discussion going on in its hay day, all in all I'm a little sad it tapered off into nothingness; once the petty squabbles got settled there was some good theological discussion."

I love watching a good shit storm though............................................ .......

[ZOOTECH]

Re: Gun Control

I love watching a good shit storm though............................................ .......

Maybe so, but these two members have given us a thoughtful debate from both sides without much 'mud slinging' (shit storm).

[Tonerbomb]

Re: Gun Control

Maybe so, but these two members have given us a thoughtful debate from both sides without much 'mud slinging' (shit storm).

Duly noted!! at least the dialog was from two armed minds, as apposed to unarmed minds !!!!!!!!!!!!

[ZOOTECH]

Re: Gun Control

Duly noted!! at least the dialog was from two armed minds, as apposed to unarmed minds !!!!!!!!!!!!

That is exactly why I don't get into this kind of debate.

And what happened? I just got back with my popcorn, ready to sit back and watch the fireworks, and everyone went home.

[Coptech]

Re: Gun Control

I think all we decided was that it IS possible to protect 11 unarmed donuts with 1 armed donut...Other than that, not much transpired.

[SalesServiceGuy]

Re: Gun Control

Gun sales: Gun makers bring new products

"The surge was so strong that everybody was selling everything off the shelves. Virtually nobody in the industry had a bad year last year,"

"Clearly the biggest reason for the slowdown in demand is that previous years'

[MR Bill]

Re: Gun Control

Hello there saleserviceguy. That was a real cool youtube vid you posted about the Big Sandy Shootout. I watched it all and then googled it a watched more. Now that is what I call fire power. And all those people have lots in common. All honest folks that follow the law. I would love to go there a shoot some of those guns. I,ll bet you $100 you,ll never see any of those people in jail for murder.??? They are just out having a good time blowing stuff up. Anyway thanks for posting that.

[fixthecopier]

Re: Gun Control

Wow, haven't looked for a few days and saw this thread had caught fire again. I have a question that I haven't had time to research. Does anyone have data on the crime rate vs the gun ownership rate in areas. Pretty sure that I live in a heavily armed area.

With that in mind, I am sure that pretty much everyone I know is armed. That being said, I can't think of anyone I know who has ever had to point a gun at another person, unless they were military, and in a war zone. The closest I can come is the man who lives in the first house in the neighborhood, was threatened at his business by a "thug, gangster" and shot him dead. The guy was a career criminal. For those of you who read a lot of news, in the past months I have read about numerous home invaisons in Detroit, where the home owners defended themselves with guns, the incident in St. Louis where a girl went to her car in front of her house, was grabbed by 2 men with a knife who tried to come into the house and were shot by dad.

To justify taking away guns in America, you have to eliminate crime. How? By giving more money and arms to the police? I am more afraid of them. The only shooting in my neighborhood in the past 12 years was by a female cop, who felt threatened by a dog and shot it dead in front of the little girl who owned it. The dog was the size of a cat.

Also, does anyone have any stats that would compare the amount of gun ownership to the amount of gun related crime, compared to other countries that have guns? If gun ownership is the root cause of the problem, places with the most guns would have the most gun related crime.

You have to wade through the drama and tales of doom when discussing things like this. I like data. I remember in 2007, all the forcasters of doom saying that if Obama was elected, they would come and take all your guns and start putting people in concentration camps. Still waiting for that to happen.

[Akitu]

Re: Gun Control

I stand behind the data too. I'd very much be interested in seeing data of ownership vs crime rates, injury rates etc.

America is unique in its situation simply due to the population density, you pack 300 million people into a land mass smaller than Canada which has comparatively 10 times less people and you're gonna get people bumping elbows and getting in each other's faces. Does having a large majority that are carrying some sort of firearm deter or attract negative attention?

For a good comparison, a country with similar population density would be ideal, arguably this place would have to have similar gun laws. Anyone know of a similar land mass with similar restraints? I was never a geography guy.

[Coptech]

Re: Gun Control

You have created a few new thoughts for me. I will try and keep them separated. Statistics, (in my opinion) can be made to say anything. To use Akitu's thread earlier as example, (and I do strongly believe in that we live in an over medicated society) There were the stats of the school shooters medication history. Take that a step deeper. Assume all of those meds were prescribed by a licensed doctor. Maybe more of those doctors were a particular gender, or race, or attended a specific college. Do you want to say that white female doctors who attended Dartmouth cause violent crimes? How deep do you want to dig? Truth is, the meds probably have much to do with the crime. ADD, autism, as well as other diagnoses seem to be on the rise and I believe are almost a fad.


I like the population thought. It made me wonder about Alaska. Assuming they have same US governing, more sparse population, and that almost every man woman and child has a gun (for protection against nature and the elements) and has been trained since birth to be a responsible gun owner, how does their crime rate stack up?

Akitu brought up a phrase that has been absent from too many posts in this thread. He used the term "responsible gun owner". Very true that arming the irresponsible would be very detrimental to society. Truth is, armed irresponsible gun owners are the origin of the crime rate anyway. right? I still stand by the thought that responsible gun owners in society in a number great enough to be a concern for criminals is a good deterrent to crime.

[MR Bill]

Re: Gun Control

There is a small town in Washington State. ( Riverside ) that has a law on the books that says home owners will have a gun in there house to deture crime. ( not sure of the reason) But the crime rate is ZERO. And I think there is a city in Georgia now that has the same law. Very low crime rate. ?