Confusing customers purchasing machines by resetting consumable life?

[oreoh]

Hi,

I was visiting a copier shop today which sells used Konica Minolta printers. I was specifically looking at a C654e. I saw the counter with a 840k meter. Went into the Utilities function to look at the consumables. A lot of them showed they were recently serviced which showed full life.

Imaging unit, developer, fusing unit, transfer belt were at 25% without a service date tag.

I mentioned this to the seller and wanted to lower the price. He said I can easily scam you and show you the life is 100%. And in front of me, he reset those things back to 100% life. And now the consumables had a date tag under it.

To justify my bewilderment, I said, well, the computer will know what you did and correct itself, so it's a gimmick. He replied, that it's not.

Now i'm kinda scared of purchasing a used machine, even though I know, realistically that is all I can afford lol

How do you guys verify information from the machine without doing a manual inspection of parts as clearly I have no knowledge what to look for even if I have the technical capability to open the machine and look at parts. I just wouldn't know what to look for.

Is there a software function in the machines that can correct this incorrect reset functions?

[GIUBOSS]

Re: Confusing customers purchasing machines by resetting consumable life?

In my opinion, only technicians with some experience can accurately examine the condition of the machine and the various parts subject to wear. If you do not know the history of replacements or you do not have the sheet of past technical interventions I would not trust the% displayed.I never buy machines over 70k pages for 30/40/50 cpm, in your case there are many and I would have the machine viewed by a technical acquaintance or on behalf of third parties. Good luck.

[copyman]

Re: Confusing customers purchasing machines by resetting consumable life?

On the "4" series and some other models the Fuser unit & Image Transfer belt can easily be reset in service mode. The Image units (C654/754), drums & developer units (other models) have chips to reset counters. There may be some soft switches to reset consumables as well. Regardless of the consumable life 840K is higher meter than I would feel comfortable with buying. It's not really that high of meter for a production model but would be more worried with age of the machine. Of course it depends on the price & availability of copiers in users country. My experience is the C654/754 models can run to 1+ million page count but that is in high volume locations like print shops, big offices, etc. Lower volume locations machine has more problems.

[blackcat4866]

Re: Confusing customers purchasing machines by resetting consumable life?

One thing I haven't seen yet in the previous posts, is the fact that resetting counters without actually changing the parts can lead to rapid degradation of the image quality. The image quality voltages are based on unit wear. I've seen developing units working fine past life ... until the counter is reset, then it dumps. I would be suspicious of any machine over 100K, and expect to have to change some consumables upon arrival. =^..^=

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Confusing customers purchasing machines by resetting consumable life?

One thing I haven't seen yet in the previous posts, is the fact that resetting counters without actually changing the parts can lead to rapid degradation of the image quality. The image quality voltages are based on unit wear. =^..^=

Conversely, the same will happen if you replace with new components and fail to reset the counters.

[oreoh]

Re: Confusing customers purchasing machines by resetting consumable life?

In my opinion, only technicians with some experience can accurately examine the condition of the machine and the various parts subject to wear. If you do not know the history of replacements or you do not have the sheet of past technical interventions I would not trust the% displayed. I never buy machines over 70k pages for 30/40/50 cpm, in your case there are many and I would have the machine viewed by a technical acquaintance or on behalf of third parties. Good luck.

Unfortunately technicians who can provide that assistance don't really exist in my locality.

On the "4" series and some other models the Fuser unit & Image Transfer belt can easily be reset in service mode. The Image units (C654/754), drums & developer units (other models) have chips to reset counters. There may be some soft switches to reset consumables as well. Regardless of the consumable life 840K is higher meter than I would feel comfortable with buying. It's not really that high of meter for a production model but would be more worried with age of the machine. Of course it depends on the price & availability of copiers in users country. My experience is the C654/754 models can run to 1+ million page count but that is in high volume locations like print shops, big offices, etc. Lower volume locations machine has more problems.

Interesting. Here is how I came to understand the potential life of the machine... From a youtube video which sells used copiers, they said the duty cycles are guaranteed for 36 months for a machine, so that is, the maximum life of a machine based on a monthly duty cycle value. In the case of the C654e, that monthly duty cycle value is 250,000 copies a month.

So I took this value and multiplied it by 36 months to get a total life of the printer = 9 million pages.
Out of this value of 9 million pages, the consumable life is the Imaging Unit:

Imaging unit lifetime Black: 300,000 pages / 1,200,000 pages (Drum / Developer)
CMY: 155,000 pages

At 840k printed pages, I thought there is still a good 8million pages life of the machine... thoughts on this calculation?

My use is for at home office use only. I currently use a Canon C3325i and it is now printed pages with faded areas in black ink. Canon is charging me $800 to replace the drum and fix the problem. My Canon has a counter of 44k pages.

The C654e is costing me $2000.

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Confusing customers purchasing machines by resetting consumable life?

Unfortunately technicians who can provide that assistance don't really exist in my locality.


Interesting. Here is how I came to understand the potential life of the machine... From a youtube video which sells used copiers, they said the duty cycles are guaranteed for 36 months for a machine, so that is, the maximum life of a machine based on a monthly duty cycle value. In the case of the C654e, that monthly duty cycle value is 250,000 copies a month.

So I took this value and multiplied it by 36 months to get a total life of the printer = 9 million pages.
Out of this value of 9 million pages, the consumable life is the Imaging Unit:

Imaging unit lifetime Black: 300,000 pages / 1,200,000 pages (Drum / Developer)
CMY: 155,000 pages

At 840k printed pages, I thought there is still a good 8million pages life of the machine... thoughts on this calculation?

My use is for at home office use only. I currently use a Canon C3325i and it is now printed pages with faded areas in black ink. Canon is charging me $800 to replace the drum and fix the problem. My Canon has a counter of 44k pages.

The C654e is costing me $2000.

Manufacturers like to fudge on the monthly duty cycle. Cut it in half and you'll be closer to the truth.

[JR2ALTA]

Re: Confusing customers purchasing machines by resetting consumable life?

Please don't buy a color copier without a service contract. Your first service call could be a $2,000 bill.

[tonerjockey]

Re: Confusing customers purchasing machines by resetting consumable life?

two things happen with copiers. the parts wear out from use, and they wear out from age.

when considering a used machine, you have to weigh those two factors.

this unit had a launch date of 2013. and it has 875k.

and while that volume isn't excessive for a production machine, it is a factor on this segment i feel.


after 7 years, rubber rollers, foam seals and urethane parts all are going bad. like a pencil erasure. brand new box. open them after 10 years and the erasure doesn't work. its hard.

same thing here. and at 850k, both soft and mechanical parts are all getting worn.


and if your dealing with a person that is resetting numbers, whos to say the counter hasn't been rolled back. which would be illegal.


and the monthly volume ratings are just insanity. you can look at a new HP or Brother, and see those high number, and know from experience that the fusers might last to 80 - 120K.


i don't know who decides to put those misleading numbers up, but its like saying your car will get 150K miles per month based on a 500 mile drive every day.


in theory, maybe. in reality, not so likely.


and for a personal home machine, a used 65 page per minute box seems over kill. imho...

but if the seller makes a warranty guarantee, that says you will get so much life, and he will cover all parts, not code like consumables, or hard parts, a total guarantee. than maybe so.

but whos to say that he has some discretion as to what you expected, and what he/ she is willing to replace.


best of luck.

[tsbservice]

Re: Confusing customers purchasing machines by resetting consumable life?

two things happen with copiers. the parts wear out from use, and they wear out from age.

when considering a used machine, you have to weigh those two factors.

this unit had a launch date of 2013. and it has 875k.

and while that volume isn't excessive for a production machine, it is a factor on this segment i feel.


after 7 years, rubber rollers, foam seals and urethane parts all are going bad. like a pencil erasure. brand new box. open them after 10 years and the erasure doesn't work. its hard.

same thing here. and at 850k, both soft and mechanical parts are all getting worn.


and if your dealing with a person that is resetting numbers, whos to say the counter hasn't been rolled back. which would be illegal.


and the monthly volume ratings are just insanity. you can look at a new HP or Brother, and see those high number, and know from experience that the fusers might last to 80 - 120K.


i don't know who decides to put those misleading numbers up, but its like saying your car will get 150K miles per month based on a 500 mile drive every day.


in theory, maybe. in reality, not so likely.


and for a personal home machine, a used 65 page per minute box seems over kill. imho...

but if the seller makes a warranty guarantee, that says you will get so much life, and he will cover all parts, not code like consumables, or hard parts, a total guarantee. than maybe so.

but whos to say that he has some discretion as to what you expected, and what he/ she is willing to replace.


best of luck.

Absolutely agree.
One thing to mention, considering where he is(OP) new machine is very expensive and unlikely.
In overall C654e with less than million counter is worthy candidate we have a couple of C224e close to 2 millions.

[copyman]

Re: Confusing customers purchasing machines by resetting consumable life?

Unfortunately technicians who can provide that assistance don't really exist in my locality.


Interesting. Here is how I came to understand the potential life of the machine... From a youtube video which sells used copiers, they said the duty cycles are guaranteed for 36 months for a machine, so that is, the maximum life of a machine based on a monthly duty cycle value. In the case of the C654e, that monthly duty cycle value is 250,000 copies a month.

So I took this value and multiplied it by 36 months to get a total life of the printer = 9 million pages.
Out of this value of 9 million pages, the consumable life is the Imaging Unit:

Imaging unit lifetime Black: 300,000 pages / 1,200,000 pages (Drum / Developer)
CMY: 155,000 pages

At 840k printed pages, I thought there is still a good 8million pages life of the machine... thoughts on this calculation?

My use is for at home office use only. I currently use a Canon C3325i and it is now printed pages with faded areas in black ink. Canon is charging me $800 to replace the drum and fix the problem. My Canon has a counter of 44k pages.

The C654e is costing me $2000.

Yes, Kon Min rated / designed the C654/754 to run 8 million pages or 5 yrs (like other poster wrote techs cut OEM recommended volume in half). But again that is for a machine running very high volume the way machine was designed for. Now that machine is 8+ yrs old you are rolling the dice on how it will work.
Two of the most common problems are tray 3 jamming (most of my customers don't even use) and fuser cleaning/ brush roller bushings / bearings disintegrating causing noise.
Bottom line is they are / were decent machines. They have treated my customers and me well over the years. I still have around 20 that I service. But I wouldn't sell one now and instead would opt for C658.

$2,000 isn't a bad price but again rolling the dice. Also much stronger & faster model then the Canon C3325!