Color drums/IUs yield problem

[Labsy]

Hi,

probably discussed many times before, but cannot find definite answer. For color machines, what's the calculation for COLOR drums/units? For example, on C450i customer has 183k black copies and 89 color. Drums have approx. 240k black yiield and 155k color. Now all are gone, KM service says they are all over the yield.

So, I guess color drums must turn along with transfer belt, if nothing moves them phisicaly away. So even if customer prints only black, color drums will wear out?

[tsbservice]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

Print PM list drums life is also in service manual newer Konicas tend to premature quoted drum life.
Color drums didn't age while printing black only due stabilization or actual color printouts...

[Labsy]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

Print PM list drums life is also in service manual newer Konicas tend to premature quoted drum life.
Color drums didn't age while printing black only due stabilization or actual color printouts...

So, newer KM machines, those with "i" at the end, you say can prematurely age color drums even if only B/W is printed? How you guyz explain this to end-customer?

[davidmtupper]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

Yield calculations are also partially based on coverage and the stated life is for about 5% coverage, think typical business letter. If the customer prints mostly graphics or other higher coverage output then the yield drops accordingly.

[Labsy]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

Yield calculations are also partially based on coverage and the stated life is for about 5% coverage, think typical business letter. If the customer prints mostly graphics or other higher coverage output then the yield drops accordingly.

In our case those were strictly business prints. What was color was mostly business leter headers with logo. Nothing fancy, coverage is around 3% on average.
Problematic is the question about yield itself, as also KM service cannot explain exactly - they say that color drums also rotate even when printing b/w, so they claim color yield is counting every page, while counter is color dependant.

With other words, KM says colour-related counter is relevant only for toners, while for drums you must obey TOTAL counter, not separate ones.
I would just like to confirm or deny this claim.

[tsbservice]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

In our case those were strictly business prints. What was color was mostly business leter headers with logo. Nothing fancy, coverage is around 3% on average.
Problematic is the question about yield itself, as also KM service cannot explain exactly - they say that color drums also rotate even when printing b/w, so they claim color yield is counting every page, while counter is color dependant.

With other words, KM says colour-related counter is relevant only for toners, while for drums you must obey TOTAL counter, not separate ones.
I would just like to confirm or deny this claim.

Easy test. Check and note in service mode color drums life counts make some B&W copies and check again.

[Max]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

Set ACS to ON. Sw 25. Retracts the belt from colour drums when printing in K only. Less friction more life. Set calibration to black as default and perhaps extend power saving so it doesn't wake up too often to warmup/ do initial calibration.

[Labsy]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

Easy test. Check and note in service mode color drums life counts make some B&W copies and check again.

Tested, and it gets even more confusing for me - one b/w page printed:

User mode:
- color counter: no change
- black counter: +1

Service mode:
- Color DRUMS rotation: no change (should be +1 if drums rotate, right?)
- Black DRUM rotation: +1
- Color DEVELOPING UNIT count: +1 (why??!)
- Black DEVELOPING UNIT count: +1

[kingarthur]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

It was always my understanding ( possibly wrongly) that drum/dev life wasn't amount of prints, but minutes rotation. so for example, in the C650i manual C,M,Y drums are 165,000 sheets, field standard yield, replacement time is 3935M, life stop is 4181M, in the manual it defines what "field standard yield" is. It's actually different for Japan/US/Europe....

[rrrohan]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

yeah thats why in CSRC it can show a drum being over life in PM count but not in consumable life

[Synthohol]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

yes, the units use minutes of use and even though color is not on the page the dv and drum still rotate and put patches on the belt for auto calibration so even though no color on the page the 3 color units still turned and still used toner for the patches so FWIW we played around just booting and shutting down when ready to copy was displayed, after a few dozen times we showed a couple minutes of "use" which makes sense. if you are out of any color it still wont print in black because it couldn't calibrate properly. color drums and dv units are always gonna age.

[allan]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

Yield calculations are also partially based on coverage and the stated life is for about 5% coverage, think typical business letter. If the customer prints mostly graphics or other higher coverage output then the yield drops accordingly.

Its counter intuitive but the drums last longer with a higher coverage due to the lubrication it provides. The contact charge roller creates an issue.
DR512 will go way past 15000M but the newer drums only about 4000M if you are lucky.

[femaster]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

Was trying to follow this, but I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly.

When I do a warranty submission to KM (in the US) for anything that falls under YPP (Yield & Performance Protection Program), the warranty submission form asks for install date of the part (or of the machine if it's an original part), the page count at install, and the page count at replacement. When submitting for warranty, I use the total count (color + B&W) for all items, except for the color drums and development units. For those I use strictly the color page count only, not some fancy combination of things. I've never had an issue with getting a warranty claim against any color drum that didn't make it to the 80% yield cutoff of pages.

[tsbservice]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

Was trying to follow this, but I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly.

When I do a warranty submission to KM (in the US) for anything that falls under YPP (Yield & Performance Protection Program), the warranty submission form asks for install date of the part (or of the machine if it's an original part), the page count at install, and the page count at replacement. When submitting for warranty, I use the total count (color + B&W) for all items, except for the color drums and development units. For those I use strictly the color page count only, not some fancy combination of things. I've never had an issue with getting a warranty claim against any color drum that didn't make it to the 80% yield cutoff of pages.

We don't have YPP unfortunately here in Europe afaik.
That being said we were denied with bizhub C250i with 30k counter and rattling sound from fuser due to 'machine is 1 and a half year old therefore out of standard 12 months warranty'. You know 30k is under 5% of quoted 800k life but it's what it is.
I think it depends on price of the machines what is included but I may be wrong.

[Labsy]

Re: Color drums/IUs yield problem

Was trying to follow this, but I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly.

When I do a warranty submission to KM (in the US) for anything that falls under YPP (Yield & Performance Protection Program), the warranty submission form asks for install date of the part (or of the machine if it's an original part), the page count at install, and the page count at replacement. When submitting for warranty, I use the total count (color + B&W) for all items, except for the color drums and development units. For those I use strictly the color page count only, not some fancy combination of things. I've never had an issue with getting a warranty claim against any color drum that didn't make it to the 80% yield cutoff of pages.

Like tsbservice said, here in EUwe do not have such a service unfortunatelly. In my country in case of warranty claim we need to provide not only counters, but also Management List. We usually get claim solved in form of additional discount with future orders, not in replacement parts.

BTW...only now I see what those "M" in drum usage means - MINUTES! So I recon there's no direct translation from minutes of use into pages printed, probably becasue waking from sleep rotates all guts inside, which translates into minutes of use, but not into pages.

Interesting info was also provided by Max:

Set ACS to ON. Sw 25. Retracts the belt from colour drums when printing in K only. Less friction more life. Set calibration to black as default and perhaps extend power saving so it doesn't wake up too often to warmup/ do initial calibration.

Found further explanation on this:

First there is Engine firmware dipSW 25 that is OFF for production priority and ON for parts life priority. In the OFF state the primary transfer rollers never retracts* for ACS copy or Auto Color for print if the job is mixed B\W and color. In the ON state it will retract if a given number of consecutive B/W pages was detected but only after the second set for copy mode. It needs to get the histogram data from the first set but it does not wait and starts printing immediately without knowing if the pages in the first set are B/W or color.

ACS needs 4 or more consecutive B/W pages to switch to K rotation only and always starts in CMYK rotation for the first 3 pages regardless if they where B/W. Base on 45ppm.

SW 50 HEX00 : Production priority (less print interruption)
SW 50 HEX01 : Parts life priority (more print interruption)

So Engine firmware dipSW 25 to ON and SW 50 HEX01. The machine will be slower with interruptions in the print job.

The machine is default set to Engine firmware dipSW 25 to OFF and SW50 does not seem to apply?!