8052ci Colours out of alignment

[fishleg]

All 3 colours are out of alignment in the main scan direction. One of the wierdest faults I've ever seen if you adjust using U469 manual I can get the colours lined up on the lead edge but the the black drifts out.

Tried latest fw, drums/devs, belt, engine board, control board, id sensors and fault doesnt change. If you adjust the colours with Auto U469 machine reports ok no errors.


Can you see how the left of the image is almost straight but the right side is out?

Whats so crazy if you place that on the glass machine accepts it no errors.... We did try the U467 on/off U469 Init etc, U464 makes little difference.

I was thinking some kind of laser fault but all three colours at once just doesnt make any sense.

I am right in thinking the id sensors are always open on these machines and close sporadically to clean?

[KYO_OEM]

id sensors always closed, just for calibration opened by shutter solenoid
sorry, but i can`t see the picture with right side out....
black is the reference color
cmy is adjusted according to bk
if we have wrong position from bk patches, we get S00* error during adjustment scan
how are the values from U465 and U468?
After U467 switched to OFF and ON again, did you get "0" U468 manual values?

[fishleg]

id sensors always closed, just for calibration opened by shutter solenoid
sorry, but i can`t see the picture with right side out....
black is the reference color
cmy is adjusted according to bk
if we have wrong position from bk patches, we get S00* error during adjustment scan
how are the values from U465 and U468?
After U467 switched to OFF and ON again, did you get "0" U468 manual values?

U468 all zero and tried resetting u467 multiple times to no success.

I removed the shutter over id sensor just to see if it made any difference, unfortunately not. Comes up 033 on u469 initialise belt with the shutter removed so can say for sure that's fine.

Tried drum/dev/transfer drive from a working machine - no success.

Unless somehow I over looked something I can only guess
Main board or lasers.

I've reuploaded it as a pdf the colours are lined up on lead edge then separate the longer the paper.

Any other ideas?

[fishleg]

Would a main high voltage board cause this?

All motors go to main high voltage and draw 24v from that and just following the wires 24v then goes to motor relay board then onto low voltage.

Has to be something common with atleast all drums. Looking at the main high voltage it looks like it creates 2 24v rails one for motors one for everything else.

[KYO_OEM]

During transfer we have first color transfer for yellow, 2nd from cyan, 3rd from magenta and bk at least in belt running direction.
What will happen if we have faulty belt itself?
I didn't read that new belt would mounted.
2nd idea, something breaks the drive from the belt...
conveying unit or 2nd transfer roller.
3rd idea, who is controlling the belt drive?
Motor control pwb and/ or engine pwb...
At leading edge we have no problem, it happens at trailing edge.

[fishleg]

During transfer we have first color transfer for yellow, 2nd from cyan, 3rd from magenta and bk at least in belt running direction.
What will happen if we have faulty belt itself?
I didn't read that new belt would mounted.
2nd idea, something breaks the drive from the belt...
conveying unit or 2nd transfer roller.
3rd idea, who is controlling the belt drive?
Motor control pwb and/ or engine pwb...
At leading edge we have no problem, it happens at trailing edge.

1st idea - yeah changed the belt
2nd idea - swapped the whole door with another machine
3rd idea - replaced control board, engine pwb, changed dev/drum/transfer drive. Changed main power supply as that supplies the motors with power.

We even tried the main board, full reset of machine nothing makes any difference.

Exhausted every option I could think of. Strangest fault I've ever seen, would love to understand whats causing it.

The only things we never changed lasers, transfer hv, drum dev hv. We litterally swapped the whole machine piece by piece.

Its as if the timing is off which I guess is to do with the lasers but I cant understand how the lead is fine but then it drifts. I went through every maintenance mode and compared it to another machine and everything is set as you would expect.

[PrintWhisperer]

Black being the reference point for all the other colors, you’ll notice that the relative displacement increases with the color as its distance from the black drum increases..
Yellow has the largest offset because it’s the furthest from the black drum.
This would indicate a speed error in the transfer belt, And it’s moving too slow.
Take the yellow MM089 gray print, for example, where you clearly see a white outline where the laser did not write in preparation of the black text, but that white area did not arrive in time to match up with where the black was being laid down.

I would definitely turn off MM467 And leave it that way to prevent any automatic correction based on temperature from tweaking the motor speed.

The real question is if the MM469 Belt initialize was done and correct with a new replacement belt.

Lastly, you can go into MM053 and tweak up the belt speed.

[tmaged]

Black being the reference point for all the other colors, you’ll notice that the relative displacement increases with the color as its distance from the black drum increases..
Yellow has the largest offset because it’s the furthest from the black drum.
This would indicate a speed error in the transfer belt, And it’s moving too slow.
Take the yellow MM089 gray print, for example, where you clearly see a white outline where the laser did not write in preparation of the black text, but that white area did not arrive in time to match up with where the black was being laid down.

I would definitely turn off MM467 And leave it that way to prevent any automatic correction based on temperature from tweaking the motor speed.

The real question is if the MM469 Belt initialize was done and correct with a new replacement belt.

Lastly, you can go into MM053 and tweak up the belt speed.

I appreciate you contributing your knowledge to this forum. You are an asset to the techs here.

[fishleg]

Black being the reference point for all the other colors, you’ll notice that the relative displacement increases with the color as its distance from the black drum increases..
Yellow has the largest offset because it’s the furthest from the black drum.
This would indicate a speed error in the transfer belt, And it’s moving too slow.
Take the yellow MM089 gray print, for example, where you clearly see a white outline where the laser did not write in preparation of the black text, but that white area did not arrive in time to match up with where the black was being laid down.

I would definitely turn off MM467 And leave it that way to prevent any automatic correction based on temperature from tweaking the motor speed.

The real question is if the MM469 Belt initialize was done and correct with a new replacement belt.

Lastly, you can go into MM053 and tweak up the belt speed.

Would this need to be a brand new belt? Unfortunately at the time I could only exchange between two machines the belt had done 100k and u469 init etc was performed. U467 off the colours are completely out main scan and sub scan directions.

I didn't try manually adjusting u469 with u467 off possibly this could of fixed it.

I did check motor speeds but I thought why change them from factory settings.

Thanks so much for your input every little helps.

[PrintWhisperer]

Would this need to be a brand new belt? ..

By the book, yes. Part of belt initialization is the belt length which is measured and calibrated as new at the factory. Used belts could have varied by stretching or shrinking so initializing a used belt would not be reliably accurate.

You speak in the past tense about this unit, so has it been retired? If so, I guess we can just theorize but based on the slow belt speed evidence there are 2 possibilities:

1) The belt has shrunk. A shorter belt at the same rotational speed results in a slower linear speed.
2) Miscalibration of the rotational speed for the transfer belt.

KYO_OEM was dead-on in seeing the transfer belt speed irregularity. That's what made me take a closer look at the offset spacing, but it seems too consistent to be caused by drag or mechanical fault. Perhaps misposition of the release/engage mechanism but that would have changed with the belt, even if used.

We have seen random corruption of color registration data where the data reset fixes it, but that is LSU based data only effecting a specific area by changing the line screen so this is different.

I think the 8353ci may be the last we see of this engine🤔

[fishleg]

By the book, yes. Part of belt initialization is the belt length which is measured and calibrated as new at the factory. Used belts could have varied by stretching or shrinking so initializing a used belt would not be reliably accurate.

You speak in the past tense about this unit, so has it been retired? If so, I guess we can just theorize but based on the slow belt speed evidence there are 2 possibilities:

1) The belt has shrunk. A shorter belt at the same rotational speed results in a slower linear speed.
2) Miscalibration of the rotational speed for the transfer belt.

KYO_OEM was dead-on in seeing the transfer belt speed irregularity. That's what made me take a closer look at the offset spacing, but it seems too consistent to be caused by drag or mechanical fault. Perhaps misposition of the release/engage mechanism but that would have changed with the belt, even if used.

We have seen random corruption of color registration data where the data reset fixes it, but that is LSU based data only effecting a specific area by changing the line screen so this is different.

I think the 8353ci may be the last we see of this engine🤔

Come Friday it will be retired ran out of time on this one.

"2) Miscalibration of the rotational speed for the transfer belt." - this is done by u469?

"We have seen random corruption of color registration data where the data reset fixes it" - this the turn u467 on/off?
Crazy fault can't really think of anything else mechanical I didn't swap. It started when a brand new belt was inserted into the machine from a MK-A. The brand new belt was then placed into another machine setup with u469 and left in that machine to see if the fault would develop. The other machine is perfectly happy with that belt been over 2 months and no fault so it couldn't have been a belt problem.

I wonder if I tweaked the transfer belt motor speed on a working machine would it produce the same fault?

You would also think if it's changing the speed of the motor I would see a difference when checking the transfer motor speed in maintenance mode?

Just trying to learn as much as possible so next time I can problem solve easier.

[PrintWhisperer]

I appreciate you contributing your knowledge to this forum. You are an asset to the techs here.

Thanks buddy. I never mind laying it down for people who want to understand the technology rather than just be told what button to push in order to fix their problem.

To answer Fishleg's questions:

1) Miscalibration of Transfer belt data could be random, from a changed PWB, or have occurred during U469 Belt Initialize, hard to say for sure. The 'other' mis-cal with registration data seems to happen after a PM or out-of-box so something in the EEPROM data calibration process gets wonky from time to time.

2) The 'other' problem of color registration data (light bands in C and M near rear of machine) is reset by U467 being turned off, calibrated and turned back on, yes.

3) Lowering the belt speed on a known good machine should produce the same defect, yes. You may have to turn off-U468 before you will have control over Belt Speed but I do not know (haven't tried). Some Auto Adjustment modes disable the ability to modify the things that they control.
(Try changing U071 with U075 enabled on a Skew sensing DP, you cannot)

Whether the changes performed by calibration are seen in Belt speed in U053 is hard to say. My observations are that sometimes the engineers will display 'calibration tweaked values' in the modes they change, and sometimes not. Color registration always goes to zero after you input a value offset, so the offsets are hidden there.