Gun Control

[MR Bill]

Re: Gun Control

Good info Akitu, I have no idea why one country has more gun killings over another. Might have something to do with in inner citys gang mentality? No father at home to set rules? I might sound like a bigot but love all races. And Switzerland has the same percentage of gun deaths as Canada but the whole population is armed there but not Canada. I have know idea. Like I said. Up bringing??

[Akitu]

Re: Gun Control

Different Reddit post here with some intriguing info by residents of Switzerland (which has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world apparently).

Zorthianator comments on TIL in Switzerland every male must attend military training and is required to keep his weapon afterwards, giving the country one of the highest gun ownership rate in the world.

The post linked here is a resident of Switzerland explaining how their gun laws work; several posts below is a summary of American gun laws. They actually look fairly similar, so where is the disconnect between the constant gun violence of America and the rest of the world's media focus?

I did some digging on my theory of having population density be a deciding factor in violent crimes. The source I found the most information from is Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt; the last census data on this was also done in 2010, so add some more salt. The four source pages I'm basing this idea off of are here.
Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of U.S. states by population density - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gun violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Comparing Switzerland to the US, the overall population density of Switzerland is 188/km2 or 447.4/sq mi. The US as a whole has an average of 34.6/km2 or 89.5/sq mi. Now this data does not support the theory on the whole, but that's an inaccurate representation of the US because of the changes in population density by region. Sorting the list of the second link by population density, and comparing it to the third link's data, we can determine that places with a population density above 188/km2 or 447.4/sq mi have increased gun crime rates. Sorting by murders/100,000 inhabitants, we can see District of Columbia is at the highest marker of 16.5 gun killings per 100,000 residents. This again skews data though because it's based on 100,000 residents in a state with a population of 601k. Sort by gun murders and the numbers become a little more in line with each other. Account for the variation by comparing data/100,000 residents with the actual recorded population.

We can see that in the same year of 2010, Switzerland had 0.52 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants as a result of a gun. The US clocks in at 3.6 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants. Taking that comparatively, Switzerland has a population of 8,000,000 and change; compared to the US at 308,000,000 and change. The data tells us this, at .52 deaths/100,000 inhabitants there were approximately 41.6 gun killings in Switzerland (just over half a kill point, what is that, paralysis?). The US following the same metric had 11088 gun killings.

What does this mean? There's a lot more people in the US than Switzerland. For the record, let's just throw Canada in there too. 2011 census clocks us in at a hair above 33,000,000 with a population density of 3.41/km2 or 8.3/sq mi. We clocked in right along with Switzerland at .5 deaths/100,000 inhabitants, although that data is circa 2009 it doesn't quite fit in with the above 2010 data, we'll have to make due. I'm doing this as an example, not thorough research. I wholly invite someone else to join me on this research so we may come up with some accurate data for further discussion.

With those metrics in mind, a population of 33.5 million (let's round up, I know Canada bypassed 34 million a few years ago but I'm going by official census data provided in the links above); Canada had 167.5 gun related deaths at .5 deaths/100,000 inhabitants and a population measured at 33.5 million. I could break it down and do a comparison of all 3 countries, and then further break down the US to exclude states that fall into these similar numbers if we wanted to compare the worst of the US to Canada/Switzerland/Imaginationland and see if we can figure out where the problem may lie.

On the whole, it appears to be that there's not terribly much more gun related crimes in the States than elsewhere, but the only majour difference is that the US has 10x the population of Canada and 39x the population of Switzerland, so with averages being the way they are, we're seeing similar data on a larger scale, blowing it more out of proportion than may be necessary.

All in all, this data can be inferred however the reader wishes to do so, I've tried to make it as unbiased as reasonably possible and just presented data as is. If any further discussion can be drawn from this I welcome anything and everything. Bonus points if you can supply data, facts and relevant arguments!

[MR Bill]

Re: Gun Control

I happen the think that is a good law there Atiku. Boy friend and girl friend go into a gun show. The guy is telling his girlfriend what to buy. You know she is buying the gun for her boyfriend who has a criminal record and legally can't own a firearm. I have a buddy that goes to gun shows. he is a dealer. He won't sell to these type of people. You have to show ID to buy a handgun or rifle . 3 day waiting period for handguns. But yes there are unscrupuious people out there that will sell out of the back door. They should pay fines and or some jail time for this in my opionion.

[Akitu]

Re: Gun Control

I saw a Reddit post that the US supreme court ruled 5-4 outlawing "straw" gun purchases, ie. buying a gun on behalf of someone else.

What does this mean for a gun owner in the US? How has it affected you if you own a gun of any type? How has it affected your acquisition of new guns?

[fixthecopier]

Re: Gun Control

2 points to consider fixthecopier dude. This is a lower to middle class town. Older houses. Nothing fancy. Looking at them you wouldn't,t think there were lots of valuables in them.

Also 9 and 10 miles away are 2 towns. Omsk and Okanogan. Close to 50000 people. Not that far of a drive to Riverside if you wanted to rob some homes. I just think criminal are stupid BUT not that stupid to drive to this town with the kind of reputation of everyone being armed?

Don't get me wrong. My town is heavily armed. The way I see it, the average person who supports gun ownership, already has one, usually a handgun, and usually more than one gun. I assume all of my neighbors are armed, I don't know for sure. However a large number of people who don't own guns are not comfortable with them, like my mother in law who gave me 2 pistols and a shotgun last month. They belonged to her late husband.

people who were forced by law to own a gun, even if they didn't want one, would take the cheap way and buy a simple shotgun or rifle that would stay at the house. The handgun owner probably also has larger weapons. He may take his handgun with him and still has guns at home. Using this logic, odds are if you are not home, there is something worth stealing in your house. In my town, guns are as good as money.

I would agree that it might lower the rate of home invasions. I think last month in Detroit, there were 5 different home invasions in which the homeowners shot the invaders.

[Akitu]

Re: Gun Control

I found it interesting in Akitu's posts that Canada is more concerned with handgun ownership and the US has more concern with rifles.

I assume it's because of practicality, I honestly don't know. What purpose does owning a handgun serve? For hunting larger game, you would obviously want a long-barreled rifle so you don't have to approach so much. A good idea when hunting for moose... Smaller game such as pheasants can be hunted with a bow. It's not to say a handgun isn't another tool to be used in hunting, but it falls into the grey area of not overly necessary. There's a lot of good hunting in Canada's wilderness...

The rifle issue in the US is just because it's the center of attention. Everyone has already accepted handgun ownership there, and elevated it to open carry or concealed carry levels as well. I wasn't kidding when I said it's rare to find anyone with a legitimate handgun and not an airsoft/bb gun replica as well, cops are pretty much the only ones you'll see with them around these parts; I can't speak for places in Canada I've not been.

[MR Bill]

Re: Gun Control

2 points to consider fixthecopier dude. This is a lower to middle class town. Older houses. Nothing fancy. Looking at them you wouldn't,t think there were lots of valuables in them.

Also 9 and 10 miles away are 2 towns. Omsk and Okanogan. Close to 50000 people. Not that far of a drive to Riverside if you wanted to rob some homes. I just think criminal are stupid BUT not that stupid to drive to this town with the kind of reputation of everyone being armed?

[MR Bill]

Re: Gun Control

Well yes fixture copier dude. Small town. So I would assume that everyone knows everyone. I sold the city a copier last year. Small country town. Cowboys, farmers, ranchers. Just good old Mayberry type town. But if you want drug money you might try burglarizing a home. Would be a bad idea in this town. Not sure about the size of the town in Georgia?

[fixthecopier]

Re: Gun Control

There is a small town in Washington State. ( Riverside ) that has a law on the books that says home owners will have a gun in there house to deture crime. ( not sure of the reason) But the crime rate is ZERO. And I think there is a city in Georgia now that has the same law. Very low crime rate. ?

Maybe I like to think from both sides, but if I were a criminal, and knew that every home had a gun, then I would assume that every home had something of value to steal when the homeowners are gone. Also the town in Washington has less than 300 people. Not sure if they had a crime problem before, but I wouldn't assume a town that size would.

[Coptech]

Re: Gun Control

I found it interesting in Akitu's posts that Canada is more concerned with handgun ownership and the US has more concern with rifles.

[MR Bill]

Re: Gun Control

There is a small town in Washington State. ( Riverside ) that has a law on the books that says home owners will have a gun in there house to deture crime. ( not sure of the reason) But the crime rate is ZERO. And I think there is a city in Georgia now that has the same law. Very low crime rate. ?

[Coptech]

Re: Gun Control

You have created a few new thoughts for me. I will try and keep them separated. Statistics, (in my opinion) can be made to say anything. To use Akitu's thread earlier as example, (and I do strongly believe in that we live in an over medicated society) There were the stats of the school shooters medication history. Take that a step deeper. Assume all of those meds were prescribed by a licensed doctor. Maybe more of those doctors were a particular gender, or race, or attended a specific college. Do you want to say that white female doctors who attended Dartmouth cause violent crimes? How deep do you want to dig? Truth is, the meds probably have much to do with the crime. ADD, autism, as well as other diagnoses seem to be on the rise and I believe are almost a fad.


I like the population thought. It made me wonder about Alaska. Assuming they have same US governing, more sparse population, and that almost every man woman and child has a gun (for protection against nature and the elements) and has been trained since birth to be a responsible gun owner, how does their crime rate stack up?

Akitu brought up a phrase that has been absent from too many posts in this thread. He used the term "responsible gun owner". Very true that arming the irresponsible would be very detrimental to society. Truth is, armed irresponsible gun owners are the origin of the crime rate anyway. right? I still stand by the thought that responsible gun owners in society in a number great enough to be a concern for criminals is a good deterrent to crime.

[Akitu]

Re: Gun Control

I stand behind the data too. I'd very much be interested in seeing data of ownership vs crime rates, injury rates etc.

America is unique in its situation simply due to the population density, you pack 300 million people into a land mass smaller than Canada which has comparatively 10 times less people and you're gonna get people bumping elbows and getting in each other's faces. Does having a large majority that are carrying some sort of firearm deter or attract negative attention?

For a good comparison, a country with similar population density would be ideal, arguably this place would have to have similar gun laws. Anyone know of a similar land mass with similar restraints? I was never a geography guy.

[fixthecopier]

Re: Gun Control

Wow, haven't looked for a few days and saw this thread had caught fire again. I have a question that I haven't had time to research. Does anyone have data on the crime rate vs the gun ownership rate in areas. Pretty sure that I live in a heavily armed area.

With that in mind, I am sure that pretty much everyone I know is armed. That being said, I can't think of anyone I know who has ever had to point a gun at another person, unless they were military, and in a war zone. The closest I can come is the man who lives in the first house in the neighborhood, was threatened at his business by a "thug, gangster" and shot him dead. The guy was a career criminal. For those of you who read a lot of news, in the past months I have read about numerous home invaisons in Detroit, where the home owners defended themselves with guns, the incident in St. Louis where a girl went to her car in front of her house, was grabbed by 2 men with a knife who tried to come into the house and were shot by dad.

To justify taking away guns in America, you have to eliminate crime. How? By giving more money and arms to the police? I am more afraid of them. The only shooting in my neighborhood in the past 12 years was by a female cop, who felt threatened by a dog and shot it dead in front of the little girl who owned it. The dog was the size of a cat.

Also, does anyone have any stats that would compare the amount of gun ownership to the amount of gun related crime, compared to other countries that have guns? If gun ownership is the root cause of the problem, places with the most guns would have the most gun related crime.

You have to wade through the drama and tales of doom when discussing things like this. I like data. I remember in 2007, all the forcasters of doom saying that if Obama was elected, they would come and take all your guns and start putting people in concentration camps. Still waiting for that to happen.

[MR Bill]

Re: Gun Control

Hello there saleserviceguy. That was a real cool youtube vid you posted about the Big Sandy Shootout. I watched it all and then googled it a watched more. Now that is what I call fire power. And all those people have lots in common. All honest folks that follow the law. I would love to go there a shoot some of those guns. I,ll bet you $100 you,ll never see any of those people in jail for murder.??? They are just out having a good time blowing stuff up. Anyway thanks for posting that.