indentured servants my ass.....

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

You're referring To the large hadron collider which has successfully re created the process if the initial Big Bang event.Also elements of this machine were manufactured by kyocera(Kyoto ceramics)true fact

If Intelligent Humans are behind the large hydro collider which has successfully recreated the process of the Big Bang event, What make some people doubt that behind the Big Bang theory there was 'Supreme Intelligence?'.

[Chameleon]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Dag you seem interested in learning and with that in mind here are 2 links on sites that will help you understand how atheist think. This is not an attempt to convert you just to expand your knowledge of people you may not know . It must be hard for people who believe in an afterlife to understand how someone could not.

atheism

Positive Atheism's Frequently Asked Questions

Thanks for the links, I think I get it now. The part about "Why do you dislike religion if it's a personal choice?" makes sense. There is a lot of crap all through human history. I liked the part about it should just be a personal choice and not all christians are crazy. "Your energy would be much better spent attacking their behaviour than defending the book they use to justify it", so true.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Dag you seem interested in learning and with that in mind here are 2 links on sites that will help you understand how atheist think. This is not an attempt to convert you just to expand your knowledge of people you may not know . It must be hard for people who believe in an afterlife to understand how someone could not.

atheism

Positive Atheism's Frequently Asked Questions

Thanks once again for those links. I have already visited one....'Atheism', although briefly. There are some interesting stuff in there.
- I found this passages under the sub heading: ''what happens when we die?'', and I Quote: '' Atheists have only one thing in common...lack of belief in gods. Atheism has nothing to say about what happens to self after death. It is possible to be an atheist but believe in incarnation(as do most budhists), or paradise, or perdition, or ghosts,....'' End of first quote.
- '' The human mind is nothing more than a piece of software being run on the computers we call 'brains'.
It might one day be possible to run them on computers other than brains...meaning that ''AFTERLIVES'' of a sort might eventually EXIST....but it certainly isn't possible to run them on nothing. Not any more than its possible to run WORD OR DOOM on nothing anyway''. End of 2nd Quote.

NOW, my dear Atheist, to me the above two quotes seem to be a complete contradiction to your statement above that, '' It must be hard for people who believe in 'Afterlife' to understand how someone does not. Could you kindly explain to us your true position as Atheists on this matter.

[mrwho]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable to the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junkyard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein.

Although that's a very unlike scenario, given the size of the Universe (if it's not infinite, it's really really big), it's just a matter of time for something like that to happen - we just need enough junkyards with tornadoes sweeping through them and a lot of time on our hands.

[Darren King]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Although that's a very unlike scenario, given the size of the Universe (if it's not infinite, it's really really big), it's just a matter of time for something like that to happen - we just need enough junkyards with tornadoes sweeping through them and a lot of time on our hands.

To believe that everything on earth happened because of a series of accidents over millions of years takes a lot of faith. The same kind of faith it takes to believe in an almighty God creating everything. Nothing has to be proven on either side because nobody has any way of knowing the truth. So all you have to do is spew you information and hope there are believers. To believe That a giraffe grew a long neck because its food source became out of reach. Is no different than believing that Moses parted the Red Sea. If my food source was out of reach for any more than a month or so I would die, not grow a longer neck, or arm, or whatever. If I stopped using my legs they would become useless, it doesn't mean my kids, or their kids would be born with useless legs. It just doesn't make sense.
I'm not saying I have the answer, but evolution is just as hard to believe, if not harder, than creationism. Blind faith is needed on either side you sit.

[mrwho]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

I'm not saying I have the answer, but evolution is just as hard to believe, if not harder, than creationism. Blind faith is needed on either side you sit.

Evolution, although still a theory, has evidence backing it up, it's not so much a mater of faith.

[Darren King]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Evolution, although still a theory, has evidence backing it up, it's not so much a mater of faith.

I'm not aware of any absolute proof of any evidence backing up evolution. Just suggestions from scientists. There is no way to prove it. Have you ever seen anything evolve? Me neither. Then again, I have never seen anyone part the Red Sea. A lot of faith needed for both.

[Darren King]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Evolution, although still a theory, has evidence backing it up, it's not so much a mater of faith.

I am not aware of any evidence that absolutely proves evolution. Have you ever seen anything evolve? Me neither. Then again I have never seen anyone part the Red Sea.
Some scientists say there is evidence of a worldwide flood as well. God, or climate? Who knows? Faith needed.

[livancicm]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Who make god and who make the one which make god? etc

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Thanks once again for those links. I have already visited one....'Atheism', although briefly. There are some interesting stuff in there.
- I found this passages under the sub heading: ''what happens when we die?'', and I Quote: '' Atheists have only one thing in common...lack of belief in gods. Atheism has nothing to say about what happens to self after death. It is possible to be an atheist but believe in incarnation(as do most budhists), or paradise, or perdition, or ghosts,....'' End of first quote.
- '' The human mind is nothing more than a piece of software being run on the computers we call 'brains'.
It might one day be possible to run them on computers other than brains...meaning that ''AFTERLIVES'' of a sort might eventually EXIST....but it certainly isn't possible to run them on nothing. Not any more than its possible to run WORD OR DOOM on nothing anyway''. End of 2nd Quote.

NOW, my dear Atheist, to me the above two quotes seem to be a complete contradiction to your statement above that, '' It must be hard for people who believe in 'Afterlife' to understand how someone does not. Could you kindly explain to us your true position as Atheists on this matter.

Dag, that is a fair question. I cannot speak for any other atheist, just me. When i wrote that , I was remembering when I was a child, the first time I had heard of an atheist. It totally blew my mind. I could not believe that such a person existed. I, like everyone else had been submerged in the Christian faith since I was born. I thought everyone believed. If you are wondering what made me start to lose my faith, I would say it was the different denominations each one telling a different tale of what it takes to go to be "saved". I started to wonder about how there could be so many different churches, each one different. In my life I have watched new churches started because half the members of one church can't agree with the other half of the members, so a new church is born. Each and every little church saying that they are the ones who have all of the answers about God. Gets confusing.

Then Questions...Are the 10 commandments each as important at the other. Well no, if you kill somebody you can be put to death. If you don't honer the Sabbath so what, nothing happens. If you don't honer you parents, you might make your mother cry, but it is not against the law. I can covet things all day long and nothing happens. I know someone will state that God will deal with them when they die, but that is not the point. Point is, why do all of the people who tell me they believe that an all powerful being that can create everything from nothing is watching everything they do, and will judge them on it when they die, not follow the word of this great being??? Well, that is because of the "Get out of Jail Free" card. It is called repenting. You can do anything, as long as you repent. I know Christians get mad when I say that but it is true. Why else would you defy God and take the chance of burning forever.

As far as what happens after you die, who knows? I could never start telling people what happens after you die because I am not dead. It is possible That I will just be dead and nothing happens, or maybe the aliens from another galaxy who planted us here will be waiting for me. now when I went to church I got painted a lot of colorful pictures about what the afterlife looked like. Pearly Gates, Mansions and streets paved with gold. ..... Now wait a minute. That does not make sense! You are in heaven, why do you need a dwelling? Does it have a kitchen? Does it have a bathroom? Why? Why streets of gold? I will tell you my opinion. When religions were created, the average person would have been by our standards, very poor and not educated. It would have been almost impossible to get someone like that to understand a spiritual concept of an afterlife. It is easy to tell them about gold and other material things. That is something they understand.

A really interesting book on the theories of how religions started is "The Power of Myth". It is fascinating. Here it is as a PBS documentary.

I read the book in High School and it changed everything.

[mrwho]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

I am not aware of any evidence that absolutely proves evolution. Have you ever seen anything evolve? Me neither. Then again I have never seen anyone part the Red Sea.
Some scientists say there is evidence of a worldwide flood as well. God, or climate? Who knows? Faith needed.

As I said, the evolution is a "theory" - there are several things that tell us that theory might be true, but, as you said, none does it absolutely - that's why it stays a theory.

As for god, it could also be considered a theory, although the evidence pointing at it is flaky at best. Take this example:

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so. The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility. Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative -- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons -- to say nothing about invisible ones -- you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.

Now another scenario: Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages -- but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren't myths at all.

Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they're never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon's fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such "evidence" -- no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it -- is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.

by Carl Sagan

[Darren King]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

As I said, the evolution is a "theory" - there are several things that tell us that theory might be true, but, as you said, none does it absolutely - that's why it stays a theory.

As for god, it could also be considered a theory, although the evidence pointing at it is flaky at best. Take this example:

by Carl Sagan

I'm not saying I believe either "theory", however, that article could be used for both sides of the argument. Again you are taking a leap of faith to believe we were monkies long, long ago.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

I'm not aware of any absolute proof of any evidence backing up evolution. Just suggestions from scientists. There is no way to prove it. Have you ever seen anything evolve? Me neither. Then again, I have never seen anyone part the Red Sea. A lot of faith needed for both.

Dear Darren King, allow me to respond to your article, in particular that part in which you 'doubt' Moses' ''parting of the Red sea''. This is some of the Basic facts or information about the Red Sea.....Its Arabic name is '' The Sea of Weeds''. It is about 1000 miles long stretch of water between Africa and Arabia. It is part of the great rift valley running from Lake Tanganyika (in Tanzania..East Africa) to the Caspian sea.
- The main scriptural (Biblical) interest centers around the northern end with the gulf of Suez, the bay of Aka bah, and the Sinai tic peninsular. In olden times the gulf of Suez extended further North, may be as far as the 'bitter Lakes' and along the Lines of the present canal. The Red Sea, also called the 'The Sea of Reeds' is What the I sraelites CROSSED DRY SHOD!
- Really? you ask. YES is the answer, and this is why or how: It is an established fact(even to date) that From time to time a favorable combination of wind and tide will SHALLOW what is left of the Sea of Reeds so much that it can be walked over almost dry shod! The Israelites, being on foot managed this. The Egyptian chariots were bogged down, however, and a SHIFT OF WIND AND CHANGE OF TIDE was their end!!!
As proof of this 'parting of the Red Sea, you take a tour of Egypt any time in future or ask those who have been there and they will confirm this fact.
- Now, we know that every natural phenomenon is attributed to God. And the children of Isreal who were being led by Moses to cross the sea believed it was a divine intervention, through Moses. Remember also that these people having been in captivity in Egypt, were seeing this Sea of Reeds for the first time.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Dag, that is a fair question. I cannot speak for any other atheist, just me. When i wrote that , I was remembering when I was a child, the first time I had heard of an atheist. It totally blew my mind. I could not believe that such a person existed. I, like everyone else had been submerged in the Christian faith since I was born. I thought everyone believed. If you are wondering what made me start to lose my faith, I would say it was the different denominations each one telling a different tale of what it takes to go to be "saved". I started to wonder about how there could be so many different churches, each one different. In my life I have watched new churches started because half the members of one church can't agree with the other half of the members, so a new church is born. Each and every little church saying that they are the ones who have all of the answers about God. Gets confusing.

Then Questions...Are the 10 commandments each as important at the other. Well no, if you kill somebody you can be put to death. If you don't honer the Sabbath so what, nothing happens. If you don't honer you parents, you might make your mother cry, but it is not against the law. I can covet things all day long and nothing happens. I know someone will state that God will deal with them when they die, but that is not the point. Point is, why do all of the people who tell me they believe that an all powerful being that can create everything from nothing is watching everything they do, and will judge them on it when they die, not follow the word of this great being??? Well, that is because of the "Get out of Jail Free" card. It is called repenting. You can do anything, as long as you repent. I know Christians get mad when I say that but it is true. Why else would you defy God and take the chance of burning forever.

As far as what happens after you die, who knows? I could never start telling people what happens after you die because I am not dead. It is possible That I will just be dead and nothing happens, or maybe the aliens from another galaxy who planted us here will be waiting for me. now when I went to church I got painted a lot of colorful pictures about what the afterlife looked like. Pearly Gates, Mansions and streets paved with gold. ..... Now wait a minute. That does not make sense! You are in heaven, why do you need a dwelling? Does it have a kitchen? Does it have a bathroom? Why? Why streets of gold? I will tell you my opinion. When religions were created, the average person would have been by our standards, very poor and not educated. It would have been almost impossible to get someone like that to understand a spiritual concept of an afterlife. It is easy to tell them about gold and other material things. That is something they understand.

A really interesting book on the theories of how religions started is "The Power of Myth". It is fascinating. Here it is as a PBS documentary. The Power of Myth - 1 of 6 on Vimeo I read the book in High School and it changed everything.

Hmmmmmm! Dear fixthecopier, you do raise valid points in your response. I have noticed one thing though: You were a member of the body of Christ who lost his faith( or membership) because of NOT the word or teaching of Christ, BUT the BEHAVIOR or ACTION of His followers which tends to contradict the TEACHING. In other words you ran away from 'human Weaknesses'.
I don't have enough time right now to delve into all the issues you raised,I've to be off to the field most of the day, but will explore it later on.
Remember in my earlier post i stated that it is my Christian duty to bring back Welcome) into the fold a fallen brother, BUT with much Love, patience & Respect.

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Dear Darren King, allow me to respond to your article, in particular that part in which you 'doubt' Moses' ''parting of the Red sea''. This is some of the Basic facts or information about the Red Sea.....Its Arabic name is '' The Sea of Weeds''. It is about 1000 miles long stretch of water between Africa and Arabia. It is part of the great rift valley running from Lake Tanganyika (in Tanzania..East Africa) to the Caspian sea.
- The main scriptural (Biblical) interest centers around the northern end with the gulf of Suez, the bay of Aka bah, and the Sinai tic peninsular. In olden times the gulf of Suez extended further North, may be as far as the 'bitter Lakes' and along the Lines of the present canal. The Red Sea, also called the 'The Sea of Reeds' is What the I sraelites CROSSED DRY SHOD!
- Really? you ask. YES is the answer, and this is why or how: It is an established fact(even to date) that From time to time a favorable combination of wind and tide will SHALLOW what is left of the Sea of Reeds so much that it can be walked over almost dry shod! The Israelites, being on foot managed this. The Egyptian chariots were bogged down, however, and a SHIFT OF WIND AND CHANGE OF TIDE was their end!!!
As proof of this 'parting of the Red Sea, you take a tour of Egypt any time in future or ask those who have been there and they will confirm this fact.
- Now, we know that every natural phenomenon is attributed to God. And the children of Isreal who were being led by Moses to cross the sea believed it was a divine intervention, through Moses. Remember also that these people having been in captivity in Egypt, were seeing this Sea of Reeds for the first time.

Dag, you have impressed me with your knowledge and reasoning. I thought I was the only one in America who knew that. I discovered that information in the book I mentioned earlier "The Power of Myth". That book would be a wealth of knowledge for a person like you that has an open mind. The book also takes the tale of Noah's Ark, and ties it to an ancient tale from the middle east, about a man who knew of a damn breaking and built a giant raft for his family and livestock. The village he was in was wash away and he and his family floated to another town. I can fully understand how that could be translated over thousands of years into the parable we know today. You really should check out the book. It will will make you strong with knowledge and a worthy opponent in any debate on theology.