indentured servants my ass.....

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

I have a serious question for my theist friends. If we met and were talking about religion and I told you that I worshiped the Norse God Odin and believed him to be the supreme being, because I was raised in a remote place and was taught that as the truth all of my life, what argument would you use to convince me that I am wrong and wasting my time.?

Odin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

I have a serious question for my theist friends. If we met and were talking about religion and I told you that I worshiped the Norse God Odin and believed him to be the supreme being, because I was raised in a remote place and was taught that as the truth all of my life, what argument would you use to convince me that I am wrong and wasting my time.?Odin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a serious question indeed! All races have and have had ideas of the Almighty spirit, the mythology or legends abound about the origin of the universe, humanity and other creations. The English word 'God' is simply the object of worship. I for one as a Christian respect other people's beliefs. But I also have the scriptural mandate to win souls to Jesus.''To convince you that you are wrong & wasting your time worshiping Odin'' would be a very tall order for me. The only workable approach is that used by the early christian fathers....as they did in the 'Acts of the Apostles', or conversion of Rome to Christianity.....[The spread of Christianity]. I would first accept you the way you are, then try to win you over with Scriptural power.'...[including love and patience]. Convincing you that 'worshiping Odin is wrong' would not be a one day affair. It could take months or even years, but in the end, with God's help it can be done. The Greeks and the Romans had ' superior gods' compared to Odin, but the early Christians managed to convince them that 'their gods were false'. - A Christian sees God in control of everything. He is not a physical person but a Spirit being who must be worshiped. _ So the 'Arguments to win you over' would be 'put into my mouth' at the right time, by the Holy Spirit, as we engage deeply in the discussion. The words would not be mine, my work would be just to utter them as they are given to me...[by the Holy Spirit]. There's no Single answer to the question you posed.

[Darren King]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

It's a serious question indeed! All races have and have had ideas of the Almighty spirit, the mythology or legends abound about the origin of the universe, humanity and other creations. The English word 'God' is simply the object of worship. I for one as a Christian respect other people's beliefs. But I also have the scriptural mandate to win souls to Jesus.''To convince you that you are wrong & wasting your time worshiping Odin'' would be a very tall order for me. The only workable approach is that used by the early christian fathers....as they did in the 'Acts of the Apostles', or conversion of Rome to Christianity.....[The spread of Christianity]. I would first accept you the way you are, then try to win you over with Scriptural power.'...[including love and patience]. Convincing you that 'worshiping Odin is wrong' would not be a one day affair. It could take months or even years, but in the end, with God's help it can be done. The Greeks and the Romans had ' superior gods' compared to Odin, but the early Christians managed to convince them that 'their gods were false'. - A Christian sees God in control of everything. He is not a physical person but a Spirit being who must be worshiped. _ So the 'Arguments to win you over' would be 'put into my mouth' at the right time, by the Holy Spirit, as we engage deeply in the discussion. The words would not be mine, my work would be just to utter them as they are given to me...[by the Holy Spirit]. There's no Single answer to the question you posed.

I'm afraid historically Christians are not known for their patience in converting people to their faith. Their preferred method was force or torture. How many wars have been fought simply because you don't believe what I believe?
If I believe in God that is a personal choice, I don't need to gather with other people who believe the same thing and try to force my beliefs onto other people. Unfortunately organized religions feel the need to do just that.
The fact that you feel "mandated" to convert others just proves that. No disrespect intended.

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

without evidence or proof, can all of the things you would say or do to disprove my God be used to disprove your God?

Remember, what can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

[Chameleon]

mostto those who believe. (And as far as winning battles check this out The Bullet Proof Presidentbelieving in Jesus.

[JR2ALTA]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

200!

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Chameleon, I just used Odin as an example. I could have picked Zeus or any of the other 2 to 3 thousand gods man has created. What if I chose the Hindu god? There are about 1 billion Hindus who will go toe to toe with you about how there God is real. I bet they have lots of witness reports and text to back up their claims.

The real fact is that you believe in Jesus because of where you were born. People believe in whatever God they worship because where they are born determines what they will be indoctrinated with. If you had been born in India, you would be Hindu. I am not hearing of any people who live in Muslim areas and have been taught Islam all their life, all of a sudden getting the word of Jesus in their head. You believe what you believe because that is what you are taught over and over all your life.

If you had grown up without ever hearing about religion, and at the age of 21 some folks came to you to tell you the "Good News", that a powerful invisible man in the sky created mankind, then got pissed at them so he flooded the whole planet and killed off everything, then let this family breed the whole human race again, then he gets pissed again and has himself born as his son to a woman so he can be killed by man to appease his anger. And by the way, this being loves you so much that if you do not love him back he will torture you for eternity. At this point I would be looking for the bus from the mental hospital they must of got off of.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

without evidence or proof, can all of the things you would say or do to disprove my God be used to disprove your God?

Remember, what can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

Dear fix, With all due respect you deserve, I don't really know what other proof or evidence of the existence of the 'Jude o-Christian' God you do need. His presence is all around us, can be seen in His creations; simply look around you, be a keen observer of the things and environment surrounding you. Study the life in plants & animals round you. The first time I crossed a 12 Mile wide Lake Albert separating one district of Uganda from another, on a motorboat, I was amazed; far in the middle of the lake I looked around me and I was awe-inspired by the beauty & serenity of Creation. But let that be a story for another day. Have you ever kept a pet at home be it dog, cat or even chicken? If so try to get very close in your relation with them and you will be puzzled....there's a lot to discover in their lives. It will bring you closer to God!
- Chameleon has said it all; do I need to say more? I suggest you should organize a tour of the world one of these days, assuming you haven't as yet traveled outside your country or continent. Your perception of the world & universe will totally change. The presence of an Almighty power will weigh heavily in your mind as you travel and observe creation. May be I should consider extending an invitation to you to visit Africa in the near future.
-As for the god Odin, I read that link you posted, I can assure you that with all due respect, he is a myth, he doesn't exist in reality. When we meet in future, God willing, I will prove that fact.
As for Darren's assertion that,'' Historically Christians are not known for 'Patience' in converting people to their faith'', I would like to say, again with due respect, that he appears not to be well informed in that area. The use of force has never been the Christian method of work. As a matter of fact, Jesus taught us that,'' If somebody slaps you on the right cheek, you should turn the other cheek too, for him to slap!''. How can people who prefer force to win converts take about 400 years to convert Rome & Athens to become Christians? Think about that. Christianity is all about 'PEACE'... that is why we say 'Love your neighbor as you Love yourself'...for the sake of peaceful coexistence.

-

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Dag, you do need to say more to sway the argument. All the things you listed as proof of what God created, are the same things that others will list as proof of their God. I am sure in India they will tell you all about how Ganesha is your only true path.

And as far as Christians spreading their word... The Crusades

The Spanish and Portuguese Conquest of the Americas

The Christians from Europe almost wiped out all the races in South America in the name of Christ. And ask the Muslims about the crusades.

[Chameleon]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

I’ll grant you living in America is why I know about Jesus. Why I believe in him is another thing altogether.

Describing the crusades as “Spreading their word” is misrepresentation. This is a quote from your own link:

The Objectives of the crusades was at first to
release the Holy Land, in particular Jerusalem, from the
Saracens


The Saracens (Muslims) came in and took the holy land from the jews/christians living there, taking it back from them does not equate to “spreading their word”. I’m not defending the crusades, just pointing out misinformation.

[Akitu]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Dear Akitu, thanks for your continued effort to keep this thread alive. First I would like to state categorically clear that I am neither a theologian nor a philosopher, not even an authority on Religious affairs. My contribution to this thread is purely based on my belief as a Lay Christian...but a well informed one 'who also questions everything'.
- Turning to the issues you raised in your different but related articles above, I would to remind you of one IMPORTANT FACT which is overlooked by many people...Christians included. And that is:The Historical, Cultural, Traditional & Social Context under which the events recorded in the Bible took place. In short God was revealing himself to humanity through Jesus, the prophets etc. These prophets lived among people as did Jesus and the apostles, and these people or tribes(in the middle east) had their own culture and tradition.
So these chosen instruments of God had to deliver God's message to the people in a 'language' the people of that time could best understand! In most cases they had to 'fuse' the message into existing parables or folklore of the people then. That is why you must have noticed that Jesus himself taught the people mostly in parables. Some of these may not make much sense to a 'modern man' like you.
- As for your questioning as to 'Why God has not given any other man the strength & power to tear a lion into pieces' as He did give Samson, I wish to invite you to come to the 'Dark continent' here and witness first hand how very courageous young herdsmen are single handedly, with bare knuckles and sometimes using a mere club, killing lions and other predators who dare attack their herds. I presume you haven't as yet 'seen' life outside 'the 1st world' where you live, and there are no Jungles and bushes for these lions live. [No offense intended]. Visit the Game parks and other wildlife areas in Africa and see young men fighting with & killing lions! In the Bible, King David killed a lion when he was as a young man looking after his father's flock.

Thanks for your reply Dag, but I feel you did not answer the cores of my questions. I'm aware there are tribes in Africa that have rites of passage that involve grouped hunting and killing of lions, I'm also aware that originally these rites were supposed to be accomplished solo, but due to dwindling numbers in the population of lions, the rites have been changed to allow groups of young men to hunt a single lion to share the same rite. Single handed is an overstatement at this point in time, as it is not common practice anymore. The fact people kill lions goes without question, search online and you'll find tons of videos of people hunting lions with rifles and other weapons. My question was solely as to why the omnipotent God has given only Samson the strength to tear a lion into two with his bare hands, but has not given that power to anyone else in history. Either the person writing that particular passage was greatly exaggerating the strength of Samson, or God just favours one person far more than his other creations, but this contests the point that God loves all of his creations equally.

Surely, by now, God should have granted some poor starving African child the power to rip a lion in twain to feed their families, which God has chosen to bestow famine upon? I would be certain at least one person out of the 7 billion on the planet would possess this super strength. Maybe it's this kid? Rare Condition Gives Toddler Super Strength - ParentDish

On the second note - I looked into your articles, and these men claim to have seen angels based on images depicted in artistic works such as the Sistine Chapel (humanoid figures with dove-like wings), which according to the bible itself do not exist. Is it not reasonable to write off that incident as the mind being unable to cope with the reality of what had happened to them and their minds taking liberties with what they claim to have seen in order to help them cope? According to the bible itself that must be what happened because the angels they saw do not exist.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Thanks for your reply Dag, but I feel you did not answer the cores of my questions. I'm aware there are tribes in Africa that have rites of passage that involve grouped hunting and killing of lions, I'm also aware that originally these rites were supposed to be accomplished solo, but due to dwindling numbers in the population of lions, the rites have been changed to allow groups of young men to hunt a single lion to share the same rite. Single handed is an overstatement at this point in time, as it is not common practice anymore. The fact people kill lions goes without question, search online and you'll find tons of videos of people hunting lions with rifles and other weapons. My question was solely as to why the omnipotent God has given only Samson the strength to tear a lion into two with his bare hands, but has not given that power to anyone else in history. Either the person writing that particular passage was greatly exaggerating the strength of Samson, or God just favours one person far more than his other creations, but this contests the point that God loves all of his creations equally.

Surely, by now, God should have granted some poor starving African child the power to rip a lion in twain to feed their families, which God has chosen to bestow famine upon? I would be certain at least one person out of the 7 billion on the planet would possess this super strength. Maybe it's this kid? Rare Condition Gives Toddler Super Strength - ParentDish

On the second note - I looked into your articles, and these men claim to have seen angels based on images depicted in artistic works such as the Sistine Chapel (humanoid figures with dove-like wings), which according to the bible itself do not exist. Is it not reasonable to write off that incident as the mind being unable to cope with the reality of what had happened to them and their minds taking liberties with what they claim to have seen in order to help them cope? According to the bible itself that must be what happened because the angels they saw do not exist.

Dear Akitu, thanks for your continued interest in this discussion. Let me tackle the issues you raised head on.
If you remember in my posts I have repeatedly stressed the need of NOT taking the meanings of the words in the Bible LITERALLY. Let me also ADD here that the best way to understand the Bible is not merely to READ it BUT by STUDYING it and THINKING about it, Then you will be able to get or gain the INSIGHT & WISDOM you are looking for. You may also need the help of one with knowledge, experience and wisdom in this matter to guide you in understanding of the words in the scripture. Let us take a typical example from none other than the Bible itself in the book of 'ACTS' ch. 8: 26-40.
In it there's a story of an Ethiopian official eunuch, who was an important figure in charge of the treasury of the queen of Ethiopia. He had been to Jerusalem to worship God and was going back to home in his carriage. As he rode along he was reading from the book of the prophet Isaiah. then he met the Apostle Phillip who asked him if 'He understands what he is reading'. The official replied, ''How can I understand UNLESS somebody explains it to me?''. And he invited Phillip to climb up and sit in the carriage with him....[and explain to him the meanings...]. You may read this interesting story for yourself...reference above.
- On 'the second note' in your article, about the 'doctrine' of Angels as merely human imaginations, and that according to the Bible Angels do not exist, I can only say this is a gross misrepresentation of facts. The Bible is 'awash' with stories of Angels interacting with humans on behalf of God! Their could of course be of human 'creation' through imaginations, yes, but ''Imagination is more important than Knowledge'', said Albert Einstein, one of the greatest scientist who ever walked the planet earth. Most of the scientific discoveries we enjoy today began as mere imaginations in the minds of men!
- Angels,..Literary 'messengers' are presumed to be 'celestial, spiritual beings with a nature superior to human nature, but infinitely lower than God's nature. [HEBREW 1:4, MATHEW 22:30]. The Bible also mentions 'cherubim & seraphim' as sort of Angels. Visitations are attributed to Angels[Psalm 104:4, 2 SAM 24:16]. They appear as protectors [2 kings 6:17, Isiah 63:9]; on occasion they may appear in human forms as to Abraham, Hagar Lot, Moses,etc Angels announce the birth of Jesus and His Resurrection They help peter and Paul. Some of the more important are named: Gabriel & Michael.
- Lastly, about God's love for humanity, the Bible teaches us that He loves as equally, regardless of any circumstance we may find ourselves in. 'The pot cannot ask the potter, ''Why did you make me like this?''. The case of 'The starving African child' I have already dwelt on that extensively on another thread in this forum, which I think gave birth to this very thread, I suggest you refer to it and re-read my posts in there to 'see' my opinion on the matter. But I would imagine that in that particular case God 'enabled' the starving African child, to 'TEAR THE HEARTS' of the 'Lion' super power country and other Rich nations, through 'PITY' and concern as human family, to send food aids and other relief supplies to that starving child. They did this by taxing you incomes to do the needful. We thank you for this. That is how God works....''Distributes the wealth by 'taking from the rich'and giving to the poor''

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Dag, you do need to say more to sway the argument. All the things you listed as proof of what God created, are the same things that others will list as proof of their God. I am sure in India they will tell you all about how Ganesha is your only true path.

And as far as Christians spreading their word... The Crusades

The Spanish and Portuguese Conquest of the Americas

The Christians from Europe almost wiped out all the races in South America in the name of Christ. And ask the Muslims about the crusades.

Thank you fix for your continuous, well intention-ed 'provocation'; No offense intended. Surely brother, you don't imply that I should sway the argument by 'presenting' to you the 'physical God' to see with your own eye before you accept that he indeed exists? Who or which Religion can ever do that? OR can an Atheist for that matter provide a physical proof of the non-existence of God? Can the Hindu God, or Odin be seen with their physical body? Who has seen God with his naked eye?
- Do you need to see with your own eye that FORCE called GRAVITY in order for you to believe GRAVITY exists? Do you need to see physically, the Electrons flowing in a conductor, before you can believe Electric current or Electrons exists? Do you need to physically see AIR or WIND [moving Air] before you can believe that it exists? What further proof does one need for the existence of MAGNETISM? Do you see the magnetic force with your naked eye, or just observe its effects? Do you 'see' sound or Heat with your own eyes? Do you see the interplanetary forces which keep the planets 'glued' to one another in motion? Do you need to 'TOUCH' Rainbow with you hands physically before you can accept what your eyes tell you? Do you need to 'see' Earthquake? And on , on,....on, the list is endless!
- God is a SPIRIT being;It is an Almighty spirit, IT is a FORCE invisible but palpable; It is the ENERGY OF CREATION, the activating force of the cosmos; It is the life force of the world, the universe. He is not a physical person but a spirit being! It is the spirit which makes you 'ABLE'. And this spirit which 'ENABLES', is found in everything which exists.[Matter & Energy inclusive]. He is Omnipresent, Omnipotent Every human race have or have had idea of this ALMIGHTY SPIRIT, and they Honor & Worship Him in different ways; they have given different or Various NAME to Him such as Jehovah, Odin, Ganesha, Jok [among the' Luo' ethnic group to which I and Obama belong]. The Important point here is that ALL RACES of the world, in one way or the other RECOGNIZE THE EXISTENCE & PRESENCE of this Almighty Figure in their lives, and 'do the needful' to Him. The name to which they refer to Him may not matter!

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

- Lastly, about God's love for humanity, the Bible teaches us that He loves as equally, regardless of any circumstance we may find ourselves in. 'The pot cannot ask the potter, ''Why did you make me like this?''. The case of 'The starving African child' I have already dwelt on that extensively on another thread in this forum, which I think gave birth to this very thread, I suggest you refer to it and re-read my posts in there to 'see' my opinion on the matter. But I would imagine that in that particular case God 'enabled' the starving African child, to 'TEAR THE HEARTS' of the 'Lion' super power country and other Rich nations, through 'PITY' and concern as human family, to send food aids and other relief supplies to that starving child. They did this by taxing you incomes to do the needful. We thank you for this. That is how God works....''Distributes the wealth by 'taking from the rich'and giving to the poor''

As a Christian, you must adhere to the rule that the only way to get to heaven is to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Applying that rule, is it your belief that all Muslims, Jews, Hindus and all of the others who have a non Christian religion, are condemed to burn in hell. That would be the majority of people on the planet. It is hard to believe the invisable man in the sky loves us unconditionally when his plans are, by his own words, to torture most of us forever because we didn't love him back. That is what most American Christians believe.

If this is not true, then where in the bible does it say this. Also, if you follow American Politics, God is not taking from the rich and giving to the poor, it is the opposite, the poor are being taxed to give more to the wealthy.

Also why do countries that have the highest standards of living, also have the highest percentage of citizens who are athiest.

When you look at the top 10 countries by GDP, only 2 are Christian.... A Look at GDP Per Capita and Religion By Nation

Also if you do the research , Norway which rates as one of the most atheistic societies on the planet along with places like Sweden and Denmark seem to have attained the highest standard of living on earth, while the worst standards seem to be the most religious. Why does God not want Christian nations to dominate the list of best places to be an example to other nations?

[Chameleon]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

I said this before that hell is not some place where God turtures people for eternity. The King James version of the bible exaggerated hell in order to put more fear into people, which is where people got the idea hell is brimstone, fire and eternal torture. Hell is a place where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth". A common misconception is gnashing of teethe = torture. This is not true, back when that was written everyone understood it to mean mourning. Tearing their clothes, weeping, gnashing teeth was what people did when they lost loved ones. Tossing people into an unquenchable fire is also a King James exaggeration. It is a parable that weeds are tossed into the fire. Hell is separation from God, if God is not going to be with people how could he torture them? Some will receive justice, some will receive mercy, but none will receive injustice. The Christian worldview is that life is one grand experiment to see who will believe and who won't. If you don't believe, God doesn't torture you, he allows you to continue on as the master of your ship but without him. Can you think of anything in your life you consider a blessing? "Praise God from whom all blessing flow", now remove anything you consider a blessing and that is what hell is. I've heard some people actually prefer an existence without God, they will get exactly what they want. I guess it depends on your point of view whether that is good or bad.

As far as the highest standard of living. The "highest standard of living" is your manmade priority. God's priority is the heart not the bank account or GDP. Follow the feet. Which nations have the greatest immigration? I think that is a better indication than GDP which are successful, if people are fleeing your country it is a good indication it sucks, and if people are bashing in the doors to get in, it's probably a good place.

Akitu - Isaiah 6:4, Angels DO have wings.