indentured servants my ass.....

[Chameleon]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Is what is right that way because God commands it, or does God command it because it is already morally right?

From what I learned about it, the first option is correct. Logically speaking, that's correct IF he commanded us to lie cheat, steal, torture, etc, then lying, cheating, stealing, torturing, etc would be morally right. BUT, God did not command us to not lie, cheat, steal, torture, etc, so that is not the case.
As to benevolence being rendered empty, that is also correct: God's benevolence does not come from commanding us to what is right, or true, God is not benevolent for commanding us to do what God commands us to do.
God's benevolence comes from his character, which is not arbitrary. God's benevolence can be seen in the consequences for not doing what he commands. God provides a way for saving those that wish to be saved, and honoring the choice of those that don't. As R.C Sproul put it "We are saved from God, by God" and some will receive justice, some will receive mercy, but nobody will receive injustice.
BTW, hell is not some eternal torture by fire either, it is eternal separation from God. God's benevolence is also seen by honoring everyone's choices, those that don't wish to follow his commands will not be forced to in the afterlife either. There may be some disappointment from making that choice, some weeping, but the idea of some red dude, fire and a pitchfork from the Tom and Jerry cartoons isn't accurate.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

In a way he did. Dag pointed to it....the word was with God, the word became flesh. He already had a plan in place to redeem mankind, if needed.

Definitely God had to redeem mankind! And why shouldn't He? Mankind's 'sinning' was simply 'an investment gone wrong'! You don't simply throw away the idea of the investment after spending so much resources on it, there must be a "PLAN B", just in case the the first plan goes wrong. The same happened to God with his 'mankind investment'.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

From what I learned about it, the first option is correct. Logically speaking, that's correct IF he commanded us to lie cheat, steal, torture, etc, then lying, cheating, stealing, torturing, etc would be morally right. BUT, God did not command us to not lie, cheat, steal, torture, etc, so that is not the case.
As to benevolence being rendered empty, that is also correct: God's benevolence does not come from commanding us to what is right, or true, God is not benevolent for commanding us to do what God commands us to do.
God's benevolence comes from his character, which is not arbitrary. God's benevolence can be seen in the consequences for not doing what he commands. God provides a way for saving those that wish to be saved, and honoring the choice of those that don't. As R.C Sproul put it "We are saved from God, by God" and some will receive justice, some will receive mercy, but nobody will receive injustice.
BTW, hell is not some eternal torture by fire either, it is eternal separation from God. God's benevolence is also seen by honoring everyone's choices, those that don't wish to follow his commands will not be forced to in the afterlife either. There may be some disappointment from making that choice, some weeping, but the idea of some red dude, fire and a pitchfork from the Tom and Jerry cartoons isn't accurate.

Dear fix & Cham, Thanks for your portraying continuous love for this thread and in search of more knowledge.
- Referring to fix's article, for God to command the ten anti commandments would in my view be tantamount to Him not only undermining , but destroying the very concept and foundations of His own 'Investment...(read creation)'.
- You must have realized that:
1)- The dominating principle in the universe is LAW, and NOT CONFUSION.
2)- JUSTICE, and NOT INJUSTICE is the SOUL & SUBSTANCE of life.
3)- RIGHTEOUSNESS and NOT CORRUPTION, is the MOLDING & MOVING Force,
in the spirit government of the world.
The truth of this is in every person. It can even be seen in the animal world, both wild and domesticated.
Pay a visit to a 'wild life education center' or zoo there in your country, or game park and see how peacefully the wild animals coexist side by side. Even the predators must live within the vicinity of their prey. There's a lesson to learn in there.

- Hell: This doctrine of 'Fire and Brimstone' as the Abrahamic Religion teaches us should not be taken literary. I Totally agree with Cham that," Hell simply means Eternal Separation from God"....(& Complete separation if I may add). Imagine your children REBELLING against you, disregarding your Parental guidance and opting to go in life completely on their own! How would their life be like? Such children are 'as good as DEAD!'. They would be leading a life full of MISERY & SUFFERING, and Emptiness....comparing to one 'burning in hell'.
Adam & Eve disobeyed their father GOD, by 'eating the forbidden fruit'. Logically, the fruit, like all others in that garden (Eden) was 'planted' for them to enjoy. God didn't and doesn't need to partake of the meal. The disobedience was about the "TIMING"....i.e 'When to start eating that fruit'. God said, 'Wait, I will tell you when it is ready to eat, so that you can get the best out of it. Adam & Eve said, 'No, the thing is already RIPE'. And that sparked the problem between the parent who knew what was good for them and the children who were impatient to taste the fruit.
- You may compare this scenario to a parent who teaches & warn his daughter about premarital sex, in order to avoid teenage pregnancy. The parent knows the consequences of such action, and how it interrupts the parent's best future plans for the daughter. The daughter due to immaturity, inexperience and active hormones, DOES NOT SEE the dangers that lie ahead as a consequence of her actions...'Disobedience'.
God who knows all, sees all, loves all, and has the best plans for us cannot therefore 'sanction' the ANTI Ten commandments of 'murder, theft, torturing babies etc'.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Dag, on that thing you brought up about God having created other people on earth at the same time as Adam an Eve. Who? Why is this not mentioned further in the bible?

Opinion #1... bible was written by man who didn't put a lot of thought into it.

Opinion #2... God was running other experiments at the same time and created several other "Gardens", and each one developed into a different religion. The one God liked the most was killed off by the others. So he sent his son to tell everybody to stop that shit, and since nobody is taking him seriously either, EVERYBODY is going to hell!

Also the Christian myth is that when you go to hell, Satan is there to torture you forever. If Satan is the enemy of God, why would he be working for him. Maybe it is a much nicer place than heaven they just don't advertise.(via hisprophets)

Dear fix, definitely there were other people God created 'besides' Adam & Eve, who were living in the other parts of the garden...(read on earth). If you read 'between the lines' in the Biblical story of creation; the story of Abel & Cain ( you may refer to my earlier post), and the "Descendants of Cain"...Gen.4:17, reads, "Cain & HIS WIFE had a son and named him Enoch...". Also in Genesis 4:25-26 it read,'' Adam and his wife had another son, called SETH to replace Abel, whom Cain had killed. SETH HAD A SON, whom he named Enosh.''
You may now ask yourself, 'Where did both Cain & Seth GET THEIR WIVES or the WOMEN whom they got married to, from?'
*** As I stated in my earlier post, 'The writers of the Bible...or to be exact the 'Pentateuch'....(first 5 books of the Bible), were like Artists trying to paint a picture. Adam & Eve were merely taken as a 'SAMPLE' to represent the 'origin of humanity.
If you always 'read between the lines' you will be able to ''unlock the real 'HIDDEN' power and true meanings of the words'' in the Bible, rather than taking the words literally as many people do.

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

If you always 'read between the lines' you will be able to ''unlock the real 'HIDDEN' power and true meanings of the words'' in the Bible, rather than taking the words literally as many people do.

Isn't that whole reading between the lines thing that allows people to twist the words that they "read between the lines" to support whatever agenda they have.

The Bible challenge... Get the leaders from the top 100 ministries in a room and they cannot leave until they all agree on everything about what you have to do to get to heaven and what will keep you out. Odds are, all of these folks will die in that room of old age in that room.

[Akitu]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Now, far be it for me to delve too deeply into something I admit I've not read all the way through, (the bible itself). I simply pose a question for those who have.

The depictions of angels plucking harps, cherubs as cute little dancing winged babies, angels having wings at all for that matter - or even the mentioned angels themselves - vary deeply from what was described in the bible to depictions from artists, most likely embellishing the original descriptions for the sake of the art. Of the 3 described types of angels, there are Archangels, Cherubim and Seraphim - none of which embody the depicted angels in accepted religious arts.

I suppose the question is - if these things have been depicted in the bible, why has there been no proof of their existence or further observation of them outside of biblical times? Why can nobody agree on what they look like from within their own sacred works? (Aside from Hell of course, nobody would be seeing that until after death)

Ezekiel 1:16 describes a being known as a "Wheel". Ezekiel 1:16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel.
Ezekiel 10:14 describes a being known as a "Cherubim" which was apparently the inspiration to the modernly accepted "Cherub - dancing naked baby with wings eg. Cupid". Except the Cherubim are nothing like the Cherub... Ezekiel 10:14 NIV - Each of the cherubim had four faces: - Bible Gateway

On the matter of Hell, apparently there is no reference of any ironic tortures, or tortures at all aside from a raging inferno of infinite heat and size - and it sucks for everyone, Hellish imps etc. as well. 2 peter 2:4 NIV - For if God did not spare angels when - Bible Gateway

What about all the passages from various iterations of the bible that have been removed? Some of them seem pretty bad ass. I think Christianity could benefit in modern society if it were to include some of these tales. Take for example, Jesus Christ: Dragon Master

And, lo, suddenly there came forth from the cave many dragons; and when the children saw them, they cried out in great terror. Then Jesus went down from the bosom of His mother, and stood on His feet before the dragons; and they adored Jesus, and thereafter retired.

-- The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, Chapter 18

What of Jesus' wrath against the child who splashed his puddle with a stick?

"O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? Behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit." And straightway that lad withered up wholly.

-- Infancy Gospel of Thomas 3:2-3

Apparently Jesus owns the school hallways too, best think twice before bumping into him as this poor lad did.

Jesus was provoked and said unto him, "Thou shalt not finish thy course." And immediately he fell down and died.

-- Infancy Gospel of Thomas 4:1

Jesus Christ: Snake Master/Exploder

Then the Lord Jesus calling the serpent, it presently came forth and submitted to him; to whom he said, "Go and suck out all the poison which thou hast infused into that boy"; so the serpent crept to the boy, and took away all its poison again. Then the Lord Jesus cursed the serpent so that it immediately burst asunder, and died.

-- First Gospel of Infancy 18:13-16

What of the benevolent Jesus' healing of the sick and blind? This seems rather contradictory, hence why it was probably removed from the more "official" versions of the bible.

Jesus said, "I know that these thy words are not thine: nevertheless for thy sake I will hold my peace: but they shall bear their punishment." And straightway they that accused him were smitten with blindness.

-- Infancy Gospel of Thomas 5:1

I think there are a lot of things that people can't agree on in regards to what should and what should not have been in the bible. What is to stop all the different sects of Christ from coming together and creating a super bible, so to speak?

[Akitu]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

On my previous mentioning of "super" bibles, let us delve into some of the described super powers in the bible. I think some of these could be great inspirations for a Marvel or DC superhero.

So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.
Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.' "
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet - a vast army.

--Ezekiel 37:1-14

Dude just raised an army of zombies to fight for him!



--Exodus 7:10-12

If magic is in the bible, why is it now regarded as a black art and shunned by modern day Christians? I'd kill for a magic stick-snake that could eat other magic stick-snakes.

Samson went down to Timnah together with his father and mother. As they approached the vineyards of Timnah, suddenly a young lion came roaring toward him. 6 The Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done.

--Judges 14:5-6

Samson's super strength is revered throughout the bible. Why has no other being been given the strength to rip a lion apart like a young goat? What beings of the modern day can or would rip apart a young goat? How young is the goat being mentioned?



--Mark 4:35-41

Apparently Jesus was better at being Aquaman than Aquaman himself.

All of these biblical superpowers, and yet there are still more that I've not mentioned, why has God been so kind to some of his disciples granting them superpowers? Surely there are Christians in the world devout enough to be worthy of these super powers. What about the pope? I think he would be a prime candidate for some kind of super power, being the only one in direct communication with God, or so he says.

[Akitu]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

For my final piece here, allow me to refer to the 10 commandments.

1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill
6. You shall not commit adultery
7. You shall not steal
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods

Here's where things get weird. There are several highly contradictory stories in the bible, which would conflict with what is accepted in modern society and what is taught in church.

From my understanding, incest today is highly frowned upon, both in church and society as a whole. Why then are there stories like this, of Lot and his daughters being a little too close while drunk in a cave?

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

--Genesis 19:30-38

Is this one taking the 4th commandment WAY too far? They definitely weren't married to boot, which from what I understand has always been frowned upon in Christianity. Does that also fall under the 6th commandment, being adulterous with 2 women to whom Lot was not married?

Several other stories of incest are within the bible, but they seem to fall under similar categories as Lot.

Now, around the time of the great flood of Noah, there were apparently giants.

4 The Nephilim (giants) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

--Genesis 6:4

If dinosaurs were put into the earth to fool man and test man's faith in God, why are there no records of the Nephilim? Surely we would have found some giant sized bones by now. These Nephilim were wiped out in the great flood, apparently the benevolent God saw fit to their complete obliteration from the face of the earth, bones and all.

Now, I don't claim to be a genetic expert by any means, but from what has been observed in modern life, we can concur that when reproduction occurs, genetic traits from both parents are typically passed on to the offspring. Would this not mean that not only are these women the Nephilim are laying with extremely loose, but that their infants would likely be larger than normal sizes based on the mixing of genes of the Nephilim and the human women? These women would be giving birth to someone the size of a 6 year old, surely their bodies wouldn't have lasted the strain of bearing that child for a single trimester, never mind carrying it to full term.

[Chameleon]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

There is some weird stuff in the bible. People can and do misinterpret verses. If you consider the bible unreliable, check this out:

If we set aside the bible and only look at outside sources here is one example. Josephus, a Roman-Jewish historian, wrote this in 94 AD:

Antiquities 18.3.3 Now there was about this time
Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of
wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He
drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the
Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had
condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake
him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets
had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And
the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this
day.

Romans had just destroyed the Jewish holy city and were executing Christians. Romans were no friend of Christians yet many other Roman historians wrote about Jesus. Everything we know about Plato can be traced back to 7 documents written hundreds of years after he lived by people favorable to Plato. Everything we know about Jesus can be traced back to over 5500 documents. I understand if you consider the bible unreliable, but to me what your enemies had to say about you should be considered reliable.

[Akitu]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

I agree, but whilst a common enemy can be considered a vital source of information, there is also the same degree of bias and exaggeration applicable simultaneously. While they may have been praising him, that does not necessarily mean or imply that the feats described actually happen as written, as every opportunity to embellish either side of the story is present - though it does lend some credibility.

Not saying it's unreliable, to be precise. More along the lines that a lot of bits and pieces have been changed or redacted altogether to suit the purpose of the message the man behind the book wishes to convey. There was an earlier post with direct contradictions that was addressed rather well, this seems to tide in with that.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Isn't that whole reading between the lines thing that allows people to twist the words that they "read between the lines" to support whatever agenda they have.

The Bible challenge... Get the leaders from the top 100 ministries in a room and they cannot leave until they all agree on everything about what you have to do to get to heaven and what will keep you out. Odds are, all of these folks will die in that room of old age in that room.

Okay, let me use the word 'STUDY' the Bible instead of 'Read between the lines'. There's a big difference between 'READING' & 'STUDYING', that I am sure everybody knows. The majority of the people 'read' the Bible, but very few 'study' the Bible. Have you realized that the question i posed about ''Cain & Seth" getting married to women existing in 'other land' makes sense? You carefully study that story in the Bible and that fact will clearly come to you. That is what i referred to as 'reading between the lines'.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Dear Akitu, thanks for your continued effort to keep this thread alive. First I would like to state categorically clear that I am neither a theologian nor a philosopher, not even an authority on Religious affairs. My contribution to this thread is purely based on my belief as a Lay Christian...but a well informed one 'who also questions everything'.
- Turning to the issues you raised in your different but related articles above, I would to remind you of one IMPORTANT FACT which is overlooked by many people...Christians included. And that is:The Historical, Cultural, Traditional & Social Context under which the events recorded in the Bible took place. In short God was revealing himself to humanity through Jesus, the prophets etc. These prophets lived among people as did Jesus and the apostles, and these people or tribes(in the middle east) had their own culture and tradition.
So these chosen instruments of God had to deliver God's message to the people in a 'language' the people of that time could best understand! In most cases they had to 'fuse' the message into existing parables or folklore of the people then. That is why you must have noticed that Jesus himself taught the people mostly in parables. Some of these may not make much sense to a 'modern man' like you.
- As for your questioning as to 'Why God has not given any other man the strength & power to tear a lion into pieces' as He did give Samson, I wish to invite you to come to the 'Dark continent' here and witness first hand how very courageous young herdsmen are single handedly, with bare knuckles and sometimes using a mere club, killing lions and other predators who dare attack their herds. I presume you haven't as yet 'seen' life outside 'the 1st world' where you live, and there are no Jungles and bushes for these lions live. [No offense intended]. Visit the Game parks and other wildlife areas in Africa and see young men fighting with & killing lions! In the Bible, King David killed a lion when he was as a young man looking after his father's flock.

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

One of the things that causes me to question Christianity is the Ten Commandments. These are God's 10 supreme laws, correct? Then why do Christians not follow them?

Also, are all 10 of equal value?
Is it just as big a sin to work on Sunday as kill someone?
I understand not killing, not stealing, respecting others, but what about rape?
If my country claims to be Christian, why does everyone work and watch sports on Sunday, shouldn't that be outlawed because it violates a commandment?



It is hard to take people seriously who claim to believe in an all powerful being, who created everything but they don't seem to fear his power enough to stay home on Sunday. Now the Muslims, they really know how to worship God! They stop several times a day and get out a prayer mat and get on the ground and bow down while they praise God for being great. They also seem to have some harsh consequences for not respecting their holy days. In America it seems that to a Christian, worshiping God means going to church on Sunday for 2 hours and then begging favors from God the rest of the week...Bless this for me lord, help me do this lord, help my team win the game lord, help us make this trip lord.

I am starting to understand why you don't hear from God much anymore. His followers are like a bunch of needy neighbors who can't do anything for themselves. After a while you just quit answering the phone.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

One of the things that causes me to question Christianity is the Ten Commandments. These are God's 10 supreme laws, correct? Then why do Christians not follow them?

Also, are all 10 of equal value?
Is it just as big a sin to work on Sunday as kill someone?
I understand not killing, not stealing, respecting others, but what about rape?
If my country claims to be Christian, why does everyone work and watch sports on Sunday, shouldn't that be outlawed because it violates a commandment?



It is hard to take people seriously who claim to believe in an all powerful being, who created everything but they don't seem to fear his power enough to stay home on Sunday. Now the Muslims, they really know how to worship God! They stop several times a day and get out a prayer mat and get on the ground and bow down while they praise God for being great. They also seem to have some harsh consequences for not respecting their holy days. In America it seems that to a Christian, worshiping God means going to church on Sunday for 2 hours and then begging favors from God the rest of the week...Bless this for me lord, help me do this lord, help my team win the game lord, help us make this trip lord.

I am starting to understand why you don't hear from God much anymore. His followers are like a bunch of needy neighbors who can't do anything for themselves. After a while you just quit answering the phone.

The 10 commandments is like a country's constitution which is the supreme law of the land. I have not known of any country where its citizens follow these laws to the letter, otherwise there would be no need for police and other law enforcement agencies to be put in place, neither would there be prisons.
Christians, as any other humans, have their limitations. Their spirit may be willing to obey and follow the 10 commandments yet the body is weak. So they 'SIN'...i.e neglect to do what the law of God commands, but since sin is 'not punished quickly enough' by the one who put it in place, they tend to 'take this commandments for granted'. The reason as to why God is ''too slow'' to punish is because he is a loving father who wants every sinner to repent & return to the fold. He is a patient God. But for one who sins e.g commits adultery, apart from the danger & fear of being caught in the very act and suffer a humiliation or even something worse happening to him, his conscience will always disturb him and that I believe is itself a punishment. Ultimately a sinner will be caught and punished in one way or the other. The worldly governments are put there in place by God himself to punish wrongdoers on His behalf.
- Are 10 commandments of EQUAL VALUE? Yes they are; For the same one who said 'Do not commit adultery is the same one who said 'do not commit murder'.
- The "QUESTION ABOUT THE SABBATH" was answered by Jesus several times! You may read this for yourself in Mathew ch.5:1 up to 5:29, 'The sermon on the mount'. The pharisees (authorized interpreters & custodians of the laws of Moses), often criticized Jesus and his disciples for working on the sabbath. Jesus who often regarded these fellows as hypocrites, had this to say to them: 'You hypocrites, any of you would untie his ox or donkey from the stall and take it out to give it water on the sabbath'. ''The sabbath was made for human beings; they were not made for the sabbath. So the son of man is Lord even of the sabbath". [Mark 2:27-28]. OR as is put in one of the passage, " Who of you would not remove his son from the pit if he fell in it on sabbath, would you say, I can't do it today, being a sabbath day?".
- The Question about WORSHIP: This word 'Worship' means 'The practice of showing respect for God, by saying prayers, singing with OTHERS. There's a difference between worship and PRAYER. Muslims worship on Fridays, Christians worship on Sundays. The Jewish sabbath begin Friday evening and extend up to Saturday. Muslims PRAY 5 times a day, Christians are taught to pray 3 times a day:Early morning, afternoon and evening before going to bed. Jesus taught us how to pray...'The Lord's Prayer', all other prayers are in it. Sundays we meet together to worship!

[Chameleon]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

I believe we are all trying to gather and pass on as much information as possible about this topic. I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for sharing your point of view. I get to see both sides of the coin, there are a lot of problems seeing the bible as “flawless” and there is a lot of weird stuff in the bible. There has been some good from the bible, and some things that can’t be explained. I’d like to convince everyone and try not to push my personal beliefs, so I’ll just keep passing on more information.
There is no evidence Christians changed the Antiquities. But I suppose many people just can’t believe they didn’t since it makes such a strong case. Since that was related to the destruction of Israel, and you were asking about Angels, I thought I ‘d bring up the 6 day war that made Israel a nation again. I saw a documentary about that war and it just blew me away. Personal testimony from soldiers on both sides mentioned angels on the battlefield.

Six Day War

Real Miracles and Angels visits

The Six Day War: Recognizing the Miracle - Judaism - Israel National News


Just thought this was relevant to sources other than the bible for angels-

Self-taught girl paints heaven | Dignoscentia


I wish we had more Christians like Dag in america. I haven't been outside America, but have heard from people who attended church services in Africa and China who said they are better Christians than most Americains. Americains don't bear the fruits of the spirit as well as other Christians. We have a hard time believing in anything nowadays.