indentured servants my ass.....

[Chameleon]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

As i turned around and the big fat man, looking like any stereotype of a big country redneck, with a cigar hanging out of one side of his mouth and his handgun strapped to his tiny waist that was holding up a massive belly, looked me in the face and saw all of the military emblems on my clothes, he looked shocked at first. Then all he could think to ask was "Why is someone like you dressed like a nigger?" My reply was "Go Fuck Yourself Fatman", and i walked away.

I don't know how I missed that!! (from page 3?). It made me LMAO IRL, I would have loved to seen that. I have no idea why but it made me think of this guy called Earnest Angley, probably because thats what I wanted to say to him when I was younger. He had a TV evangelism show, but I think it got cancelled when it came out he was just bilking people for money. Guys like Earnest Angley were the reason I gave up on religion and considered myself an athiest (actually more of a Diest) by the time I was 18. That, and the list of atrocities done in the name of religion. But I found some reasonable answers and am "back in the fold" as Dag would put it.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Just to play the devils advocate for a minute...while I personally believe parting the red sea was divine intervention, I can see how someone could come to the conclusion it was just coincedence. which is why there is some merit to man inventing religion to explain some things But then again some things defy the manmade explaination..

Well, I don't think the parting of the Red sea was just a coincidence. It is helpful here to recall that Moses, after murdering the Egyptian fled to the land of the Midianites, got married there to Jethro's daughter and produced two sons. We could also reason that while in exile, he traveled widely, and became exposed
to many things . It is also possible that he could have visited the Red sea shores or learnt about its 'weather patterns' during his time of exile among the midianites. So he knew, in advance at which point of the Red sea, and time he could cross with the people of Isreal!
_ Recall also that in the course of the Exodus, they could camp in a place for sometime before continuing with their journey. So Moses could have camped with them along the Red sea shore Waiting for the favorable wind to part the sea. Since he knew the weather patterns.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Dag, you have impressed me with your knowledge and reasoning. I thought I was the only one in America who knew that. I discovered that information in the book I mentioned earlier "The Power of Myth". That book would be a wealth of knowledge for a person like you that has an open mind. The book also takes the tale of Noah's Ark, and ties it to an ancient tale from the middle east, about a man who knew of a damn breaking and built a giant raft for his family and livestock. The village he was in was wash away and he and his family floated to another town. I can fully understand how that could be translated over thousands of years into the parable we know today. You really should check out the book. It will will make you strong with knowledge and a worthy opponent in any debate on theology.

Thank you for recognizing my contribution to this debate, I also thank you for posting to us your Avatar. I suppose it is your own image? I like it.
- You see, fixthecopier, Some of the phenomenon described as 'miracles' by the ancients, or that appeared miraculous to them has been scientifically explained as being perfectly natural, but the miracle is nature itself! For EXAMPLE: Locusts are wind driven, and winds do change (Exodus ch.10, vs.13&19). QUAILS migrate and need a rest!(Exodus ch.16 vs13)...Note: QUAILS are migratory birds; they are the smallest of the partridge family, it migrates from Africa to Europe. It is these birds which 'God provided' as MEAT for the Israelis when they complained to Moses, that they were tired of eating 'Manna'.[Probably during his time in exile, Moses had studied the migratory patterns of these birds].
- Another interesting story in the Bible occurs in the book of JOSHUA when the Israelis crossed the River JORDAN into the land of Canaan and besieged its town of Jericho. [You may 'Google the internet' to dig more info about the River Jordan]. The name Jordan means 'the Descender'.
- Between Lake GALILEE & the DEAD SEA, which is the stretch most referred to in the Bible, it flows through fairly open country of sub-tropical vegetation as far as the confluence of the Jabbok, which was the most Southerly FORD (Genesis 32, vs 10). South of that point the river flows through a GORGE and there are numerous RAPIDS and a SWIFT CURRENT.
- The '' STOPPING'' of the flow of the river which enabled the Israelis to CROSS DRY SHOD, at a FORD- LESS POINT is NOT quite a phenomenon. REASON? Landslides caused by erosion or by earthquake action have made this possible on several occasions. For example, in 1927 one rock-fall stopped the flow of the river for almost 24 hours. There is also a record of the same thing happening as long ago as AD1267.
- The collapse of the walls of Jericho may be explained by earthquake too!

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Dag, thanks again for stimulating me with intelligent conversation. I find it very enjoyable to have discussions with people who use facts and data to get their point across. As I stated in another thread, I spent a lot of years making automobile parts, and was trained over and over in the use of data and statistics. Talking to an adult who will not open his or her mind and at least listen and try to process the information is like trying to explain copier error codes to a 5 year old child. I will listen to anyones talking points if they are presented reasonably, and then if I do not agree with them I will try to find data that refutes their claim. I may even bring up points that maybe I do not personally hold, just to stimulate the conversation.


Now as far as the subject of this thread goes, one of the frustrating things about trying to have an intelligent discussion where I live, about religion, is very difficult because everyone take tha movie "The Ten Commandments" literally. They fully believe that Moses wave his hands and the jews ran across a muddy lake bed with 100 foot walls of water on each side of them.

Just like that whole Noah's ark thing. I am sure it is based on another tale that is a lot more believable. As someone who thinks about things, these items pop into my head. It is commonly accepted by most that the length of the ark translates to 400 feet. Engineers will say that a wooden boat that long and tall will break apart in the sea. The amount of space needed for animals and the logistics. Think about how much elephants eat every day, and all the fresh meat for the carnivores. And the two big ones...The point at which water covers the tallest mountain on the planet is lacking enough oxygen for men or animals to breath, at that altitude the temp is way below freezing and there is no place for that volume of water to go after the flood receded.

All of that aside, the larger issue comes up for atheist. The morality of it. God finds man so evil, and he can't think of a way to just punish or kill evil men, so he commits genocide against all life on earth. Really? Babies, children, cats and dogs, birds and rabbits all needed to be destroyed? And what did the plant life do that was so evil? If god created this planet, why not make another one and move Noah over there? All of that death that goes on in the bible does not help the case for a loving god.

The idea that we are all gods children and he sees all, gives me an image of a father who is watching from a window while his children are beating each other to death in his yard and does nothing.


If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able
then he is not omnipotent
If he is able to prevent evil, but not willing
then he is malevolent
If he is neither able or willing
Then why call him God?

That was said by Epicurus around what would be the time of Jesus.

[Chameleon]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

The idea that we are all gods children and he sees all, gives me an image of a father who is watching from a window while his children are beating each other to death in his yard and does nothing.

If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able
then he is not omnipotent
If he is able to prevent evil, but not willing
then he is malevolent
If he is neither able or willing
Then why call him God?

I must say that should give people something to think about, especiallly the religious people where you live. I could go on about free will but I heard it put another way which made more sense. On average people live some 70 years. No doubt you have been to a party of banquet or festival in your life. Imagine while getting ready for the party you stubbed your toe. It was incredibly painful but after a while the throbbing went away and you went to the party. You had the time of your life there. If later someone asked you about that day, you would probably tell them about having the time of your life. The part about stubbing your toe while getting ready would hardly be worth mentioning. Those few monents are irrelavent compared to the rest of the day. I believe in afterlife and we live forever. Whatever happens to us on Earth in the 70 or so years we live is like a drop in the ocean compared to eternity. 70 million years from now we probably won't care, or maybe even remember, what happened here since we will be doing other things. Who knows, maybe God has some way of undoing what happened to those kids in CT once they meet. This is just my opinion but I think God does have the power and is willing, delayed justice is not the same as injustice.

Faith 3000

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

I must say that should give people something to think about, especiallly the religious people where you live. I could go on about free will but I heard it put another way which made more sense. On average people live some 70 years. No doubt you have been to a party of banquet or festival in your life. Imagine while getting ready for the party you stubbed your toe. It was incredibly painful but after a while the throbbing went away and you went to the party. You had the time of your life there. If later someone asked you about that day, you would probably tell them about having the time of your life. The part about stubbing your toe while getting ready would hardly be worth mentioning. Those few monents are irrelavent compared to the rest of the day. I believe in afterlife and we live forever. Whatever happens to us on Earth in the 70 or so years we live is like a drop in the ocean compared to eternity. 70 million years from now we probably won't care, or maybe even remember, what happened here since we will be doing other things. Who knows, maybe God has some way of undoing what happened to those kids in CT once they meet. This is just my opinion but I think God does have the power and is willing, delayed justice is not the same as injustice.

Faith 3000

What you believe is very relevant to this discussion, thank you for adding to it.


In reading this it says Moses is the most mentioned person in the Quran, or Koran. I found that interesting.

Islamic

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Thank you too, mrfixthecopier, for your continued interest in this debate. I do entirely agree with your assertion that most believers take the words in the Bible literally, 'blind faith' if I may use that word! This has among other causes resulted into two things: One is that most believers follow their clergyman's words and actions so blindly that they think such behaviors is sanctioned by God, even when it is obvious that as any other humans they also make mistakes. The followers are so indoctrinated that 'Questioning' the errant behavior of their priest, pastor or Imams is considered tantamount to SACRILEGE. One could even be excommunicated! Fortunately I don't fall in that 'camp'. Secondly such rigidity in doctrine has a tendency to drive members who disagree with their actions away from the community of believers.
- Touching briefly on the well known Scriptural account of the FLOOD, I do agree with you that very SIMILAR account of a flood occur in the literature of the other peoples of the middle east world, and this gives clear proof that at a point in history there was an inundation upon a considerable scale.
The Genesis account characteristically gives a Religious explanation: '' The world has grown wicked....too wicked to redeem. God decides to destroy it and build again from the remnant of Noah and his family, with the living creatures rescued int he ark.
NB: It must be noted here that in Genesis, however, there are TWO narratives:i.e the Jehovistic and the Priestly. (Ref: Pentateuch). The priestly is as usual more elaborate, and there are differences of detail.
Both bear close resemblance to the BABYLONIAN account......[The ones you refer to in your article above].

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Both the two Links...'Faith 300' and 'Islam' are very informative. Thanks Gentlemen for referring us to those links. As a by the way, and an addendum,, to my post above Do you know that, in the aftermath of any natural disasters be it earthquake, tornado, hurricane or tsunami, people will be more eager to listen and accept a Religious explanation for its occurrence...attributing it to the Hand of God , than even bother to listen to scientific explanation from the physicists or meteorologists talking about 'the movement of ' TECTONIC PLATES in the bowels of the earth?
- If you were to stand on the pulpit and start preaching to your congregation about 'tectonic plates', or gravitational pull between earth and moon resulting into tornadoes or hurricanes..blah, blah, blah, I bet by the end of the sermon you wouldn't be having any member left in the church pew. Humans by nature want simple and quick explanations which can put the subject in question to rest, so that they get on with their lives! That is why they would flock to the man who will simply say..'' This hurricane happened because God is annoyed with America! The people of America should repent and turn away from their sins!''. That is what the ordinary mind wants to hear. Not about Tectonic plates colliding under the bowels of the earth.
- That is why the writers of the scriptures were attributing all natural occurrences to God or miracles. It easier for the masses to accept, its a shortcut to lengthy arguments.

[mrwho]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Humans by nature want simple and quick explanations which can put the subject in question to rest, so that they get on with their lives!

It's true what you say, but our wishes shouldn't cloud our judgement. I want to win the lottery, but it doesn't happen just because I want it so bad. In pretty much the same way the fact that people would like to have a higher being looking down on them, to take care of them, doesn't make it any real.

[Chameleon]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

people would like to have a higher being looking down on them, to take care of them.

I like to believe that. I think a lot about what fix said about a father watching from a window while his children beat each other to death. Because isn't that exactly what life is? There just isn't a good answer to letting kids suffer. Even if science offers an answer, it isn't a good one. There just isn't an answer that would get people to say "Oh, well that makes it OK then". I think it's OK to hope God will have an answer, but not let it cloud my judgement. Its too bad some do and then say stupid things trying to justify it.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

It's true what you say, but our wishes shouldn't cloud our judgement. I want to win the lottery, but it doesn't happen just because I want it so bad. In pretty much the same way the fact that people would like to have a higher being looking down on them, to take care of them, doesn't make it any real.

If I won a lottery today and you asked me how it so happened that I won, my Immediate answer would be, '' i don't know, I think its just God who made me win"... many winners be they theists or atheists would say something along that line.
- Today's local newspapers in my country is awash with the story of pope BENEDICT'S resignation. In one of the daily's...'The Monitor Newspaper' in one of its pages had a 'screaming' line: ''LIGHTNING STRIKES VATICAN AFTER POPE BENEDICT'S RESIGNATION". The article was indeed accompanied by an awesome picture of lightning striking directly on the dome of St. Peter's Cathedral in the Vatican. Both the story of the pope's resignation and the lightning striking the Vatican 2 hours after the pope announcing his resignations generated a lot of interest and comments from the Catholic and other christian believers here.... You could here most of them say: '' You see, most likely God is not happy with his decisions to resign from the papacy". No amount of COINCIDENCE factor could sway them from their conviction that it was the hand of God in this lightning. Although the AFP photo-journalist who captured the picture clearly indicated that there was a heavy down pour in Rome during that moment.
- You may Google: www.monitor.co.ug/News

[User Name]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

TL;DR

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Both the two Links...'Faith 300' and 'Islam' are very informative. Thanks Gentlemen for referring us to those links. As a by the way, and an addendum,, to my post above Do you know that, in the aftermath of any natural disasters be it earthquake, tornado, hurricane or tsunami, people will be more eager to listen and accept a Religious explanation for its occurrence...attributing it to the Hand of God , than even bother to listen to scientific explanation from the physicists or meteorologists talking about 'the movement of ' TECTONIC PLATES in the bowels of the earth?
- If you were to stand on the pulpit and start preaching to your congregation about 'tectonic plates', or gravitational pull between earth and moon resulting into tornadoes or hurricanes..blah, blah, blah, I bet by the end of the sermon you wouldn't be having any member left in the church pew. Humans by nature want simple and quick explanations which can put the subject in question to rest, so that they get on with their lives! That is why they would flock to the man who will simply say..'' This hurricane happened because God is annoyed with America! The people of America should repent and turn away from their sins!''. That is what the ordinary mind wants to hear. Not about Tectonic plates colliding under the bowels of the earth.
- That is why the writers of the scriptures were attributing all natural occurrences to God or miracles. It easier for the masses to accept, its a shortcut to lengthy arguments.

"This one is strong with knowledge and logical thinking"

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

Dag, one of the things that I see a lot, are people who believe and as you stated, are willing to believe the most simple explanation, usually that god did it. The problem with not challenging those assertions is that these people are weak and vulnerable mentally and are easily controlled by people with an agenda. What these people do not realize is that it weakens the appearence of just how great their faith is, when statements are made that are so outrageous that most christians cannot believe it. All of the natural disasters that happen, well that is God punishing us savagely as he does in the bible. Here are some examples. I could post hundreds if I had the time.


Right-Wing Pastor Says God Is Punishing America with Hurricanes, Drought | TFN Insider


Is God Punishing America?


Religious "leaders" blaming Hurricane Sandy on the LGBT community - Boston Spirit Magazine - Boston.com


Is God punishing America? | The Augusta Chronicle



So instead of weather, The same storms that have occurred since the beginning of time are now punishment. And if you have an agenda, you can keep telling the sheep that the bad stuff won't stop until they follow what you say and ignor all facts that contradict what you say. This one would be kind of a cross over subject...

Huckabee blames school shooting on no God in classroom

So, they can't explain or never want to talk about this...


Shootings: Schools vs. Churches


Using their own twisted logic, Christians in America must be keeping Jesus out of church. It is just as I have suspected all along.

[fixthecopier]

Re: indentured servants my ass.....

All of a sudden, this rush of thought hit me, maybe from God? If you use Google earth to scan the areas that have been hit by disaster, and count the number of strip clubs vs. the number of churches, you realize that God is real, and he is really pissed off...AT CHURCHES! I know if a hurricane took out my town, it might destroy 100 bars and clubs, but 7 to 10 times that in ministries. Based on what I read in the old testament, this is a bad time to be an American Christian. YOU BETTER RUN!