Gun Control

[Akitu]

Re: Gun Control

*Snip*

American gun advocates seem trapped in a never ending escalation of imaging the worst possible violent outcome and preparing for it.

I think this ties in perfectly to what I said about elementary school and the half a billion "what if" scenarios. Though I wouldn't phrase it exactly as so.

[fixthecopier]

Re: Gun Control

Since this is a gun control thread, did anybody post stats on how often trained officers hit a target? interesting read when you picture teachers getting into gun fights. Empire State Building shooting sparks questions about NYPD shot accuracy - Crimesider - CBS News


To summarize it shows cops only hitting target about 30 per cent or less when the target is not shooting back and around 18 per cent when the target is shooting back.

[SalesServiceGuy]

Re: Gun Control

It must be terrifying as a US police officer to know that any person you encounter could pull out a concealed hand gun loaded with hollow point bullets. For this reason alone, hollow point bullets should not be sold at retail. Distribution of hollow points should only be to controlled specific groups of public officials and in limited quantities.

Many Americans seem opposed to arming teachers with lethal weapons as they are as likely to hit the innocent as the assailant. Why not provide teachers with non lethal methods of self defence like a stun grenade or flash bang?

[MR Bill]

Re: Gun Control

SalesServiceguy.

I think a large majority of police are in favor of law abiding citizens having concealed weapons. Hollow point or no hollow point. They just don't want to get in a gun battle. Period.

I had a revolver in my front pocket last year and got pulled over. The cop asked me to get out of the car. The first thing I did was tell the cop I had a CCW and I was armed. He was glad I told him. But he had nothing to fear from me. I carry so I can be a back up for them if needed. Among other reasons.

[SalesServiceGuy]

Re: Gun Control

It is a bit of a long read but I find this article greatly helps my understanding of the realities of a concealed hand gun.

Concealed Carry

"The world is not a gallery of pop up targets. Do not let your imagination get the best of you. Do not be confrontational. Back away from trouble when you can. Things like cars and TV sets can almost always be replaced. Only use or display a gun if your life or the life of another is in imminent danger and there is no safe way to retreat. If you have the chance, give your assailant every opportunity to leave or change his or her mind."

[MR Bill]

Re: Gun Control

SalesSetrviceguy, that was a good read. I agree with just about everything in it. Are you female by chance? Just wondering. That was from a ladies mag if I'm not mistaken. No matter. With my situation with the police I knew I was going to be arrested . I made a mistake . So right off the bat I told the cop about my revolver in my pocket.. You don't want them searching you and they find it then. They will take you to the ground. Hard. anyway I don't believe open carry is a smart idea. The purpose of having a weapon is to SURPRISE the criminal. Don't let people know you have a gun.

Anyway. Good talking about this. Lots of good points .

[Iowatech]

Re: Gun Control

It is a bit of a long read but I find this article greatly helps my understanding of the realities of a concealed hand gun.

Concealed Carry

"The world is not a gallery of pop up targets. Do not let your imagination get the best of you. Do not be confrontational. Back away from trouble when you can. Things like cars and TV sets can almost always be replaced. Only use or display a gun if your life or the life of another is in imminent danger and there is no safe way to retreat. If you have the chance, give your assailant every opportunity to leave or change his or her mind."

I don't know, but the one thing I think might be an error in your quote of the article (and therefor an error in the article and not your fault (still, that article is a good read)) is that you only display a gun if you are ready to actually use it right then and then accept the results. Kind of goes along the lines of you never assume any gun you see is unloaded, or you never point any gun at things that you don't want to get shot. If I'm wrong, sorry about that.

[SalesServiceGuy]

Re: Gun Control

If you wear Levis, read Time or Rolling Stone magazine, listen to Beyonce or go to Disneyland, according to the NRA Enemies list, you are no friend of the NRA.

[Shadow]

Re: Gun Control

Mr. Bill, I am sure that you are one of the few that would inform the police that you have a CCW permit and were armed.
I got stopped one morning on my way to the range for a couple of rounds of trap shooting.
The office noticed that there was a large black case in the back of my Jeep and asked what was in it.
I informed him that there were 3 shot guns and I was on my way to the range, and I produced my firearms license and registration cards for each of the shotguns with me.
Her stated that it was a good thing that I informed him of this and he wanted to see that I was transporting them in a safe manor.
I took him to the back and opened the back of my vehicle, then removed the case and placed it on the front of the police cruiser.
I removed the keys from my pocket and opened the case, and allowed him to inspect what was inside.
To his amazement there were 3 shotguns all trigger locked as well as being locked inside of an approved transport case.
My ammo was stored in an other locked case as well. I closed and locked the case and placed it back in my vehicle.
We spent the next 20 minutes discussing the pros and cons of the Mossberg 500 as a stable Police issue shotgun.
3 weeks later he showed up at the range for a few rounds of trap with an old Winchester shotgun.
We had a blast that day. It is in you best interest to be upfront with the boys in blue, as they can make things tough for you if they so desire.

[Iowatech]

Re: Gun Control

If you wear Levis, read Time or Rolling Stone magazine, listen to Beyonce or go to Disneyland, according to the NRA Enemies list, you are no friend of the NRA.

That sounds silly. Please show your work.

[Shadow1]

Re: Gun Control

...am I not mistaken in the assumption that the bullet that does not expend all its energy upon the point of impact would do less damage than the bullet that would and as a result, the most damage done by the solid core round is actually collateral damage from a potential ricochet?

The amount of energy imparted to the "victim" is calculated as Energy = Mass * Delta Velocity - the faster the round changes velocity, the more energy is transferred to whatever it hit. There are 2 problems with JRN (Jacketed Round Nose) and FMJ (Full Metal Jacket - the same as JRN except the base of the bullet is also encased in the jacket material - usually copper) bullets is that since they do not expand, they travel a long way through flesh. this leaves a relatively long, but tiny hole in the victim - it will hurt like hell, and eventually bleed a lot, but won't knock you over, and it would take the vic a long time to become incapacitated unless you hit something REALLY vital - think head shot, because there have been many cases of criminals shot through the heart and still on the rampage for a long time because the relatively tiny hole in his heart didn't bleed rapidly. The second problem is those rounds tend to exit intact, and with out losing too much of their energy - they can go on to hurt someone else very easily.

JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point) rounds mushroom out inside the victim to several times their original diameter this creates a massive amount of surface area to transfer energy - if you do all the math, doubling the diameter creates 4 times the surface area, and if the resistance is relatively linear (it's not - it's actually greater) 4 times the surface area transfers energy 16 times faster than the JRN. These rounds typically do not exit the victim unless you get into the really big handgun or rifle rounds. If they do, they create a MASSIVE exit wound, and the additional energy dissipated creates shock waves and a wound cavity tens of times larger than the bullet. This isn't a little pinhole through the perp's heart, this is grabbing half the contents of his chest and shoving it out through his back.

If these rounds do exit the perp - say for example, you clipped him in the arm or something - then the bullet has lost much more energy to begin with, and it's flattened, misshaped form will lose energy much more rapidly hitting a wall, or through simple aerodynamics. The blunted shape is also less likely to penetrate into another person, so for any secondary person hit it would be more like getting punched than shot (still dangerous, but less likely to penetrate to something vital)

That may be a little more detail than anybody wants, but now you understand why JHP rounds are actually safer to use in self defense... unless you're the criminal.

The definition of an enemy in America is anybody who doesn't think like you do. The far right has found that name calling and telling things that might not be true are very effective. If someone opposes your policies, just call them a Socialist, a Marxist or really go way out in space and compare everything from Obamacare to medicare to the holocaust.I can't believe it every time some GOP rep wants to bring up the holocaust, as if to say, "Look , I know nothing about the holocaust and I bet if you are still listening to me, I bet you don't either" Idaho Republican Compares Obamacare To The Holocaust | ThinkProgress

Obamacare IS a huge step toward socialized medicine - Socialism has proven to fail over and over again. Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security used to be forms of insurance or investments toward your retirement - until congress changed the accounting methods in order to get their grubby little hands on the money for whatever nefarious purpose was running through their greedy minds - now it's the world's biggest Ponzi Scheme. If you want a true reference to the German Holocaust, then you're going to have to look to the abortion industry.

...but all of these things are topics for a different thread.

It must be terrifying as a US police officer to know that any person you encounter could pull out a concealed hand gun loaded with hollow point bullets. For this reason alone, hollow point bullets should not be sold at retail. Distribution of hollow points should only be to controlled specific groups of public officials and in limited quantities.

Many Americans seem opposed to arming teachers with lethal weapons as they are as likely to hit the innocent as the assailant. Why not provide teachers with non lethal methods of self defence like a stun grenade or flash bang?

Police know they have nothing to fear from the VAST majority of citizens, and that the ones that are truly dangerous would be dangerous no matter what.

Collateral damage is always a possibility in any gun fight, but I would prefer my children's teachers have the option to be armed - perhaps with a special CCW permit and additional training and practice on the firing range if it would make you feel better. Even if a child was a victim of a stray round, it would still be better than some nut case just walking in and mowing down kids until they're all dead and moving on to the next classroom. It goes without saying that the teacher is much more concerned for the health and welfare of my kids than the lunatic. Just the possibility of meeting armed resistance would deter much of the violence, because "Gun Free School Zone" signs sure as hell aren't doing anything.

Mr. Bill, I am sure that you are one of the few that would inform the police that you have a CCW permit and were armed.
<SNIP>
It is in you best interest to be upfront with the boys in blue, as they can make things tough for you if they so desire.

In Mississippi your vehicle is considered an extension of your home - you may carry a loaded firearm with no permit. Once you put your foot on the ground you need a CCW permit, or you better not even have it in your hand unconcealed.

I've been through DUI checkpoints, etc and if the officer says anything other than "Carry on" I make sure to have both hands visible and inform them I do have a firearm in the vehicle. Same deal with traffic stops - both hands on the wheel and ask the officer if they would prefer I step out of the car because I carry a firearm.

I've gotten several different reactions - at drunk checkpoints the officer usually asks if I can retrieve my insurance card or or whatever additional paperwork without disturbing the gun, and I make sure I always can. The fact that I did the right thing and informed them I'm armed keeps them on high alert, but also means I'm not a threat.

Traffic stops are a different story - I've been asked to step out of the vehicle and the officer retrieves my gun before proceeding, and I've also been asked to carefully unload my weapon, lock the breech open, and "Loan" it to him. (I'm perfectly legal in possessing it in my vehicle, and a speeding ticket is not sufficient grounds to require me to surrender my property unless they have other cause to be suspicious, and I do my best not to give them any. The "Loan me your gun" arrangement is a traditional and accepted compromise allowing the officer to protect his safety with the understanding that the gun owner raises no further suspicion with the police, and might even score a few bonus points)

It is a bit of a long read but I find this article greatly helps my understanding of the realities of a concealed hand gun.

This article makes some good points, but as noted above, if you don't get immediately waved through a checkpoint ALWAYS inform the officer you have a firearm and be ready with your CCW permit if required in your area. As I've said, Mississippi does not require any paperwork, but I don't know about other states. We also have an open carry law (or we used to - haven't checked recently) that usually only comes into play with hunters - oddly a hunting license does not give you permission to carry a firearm, it's the "gunslinger" law that makes it a moot point, but it also makes things hazy for game wardens trying to ticket illegal hunters - they have to catch people red handed, which is a good 2A protection as far as I'm concerned.

[SalesServiceGuy]

Re: Gun Control

So Shadow1 would you agree that hollow point bullets have no place in recreational shooting or hunting? Their only purpose is to cause massive trauma to human bodies.

[SalesServiceGuy]

Re: Gun Control

Iowatech, I know my comments sounds silly.

Scan through this list published on the NRA website

NRA-ILA | National Organizations With Anti-Gun Po

Levis, Time magazine, Beyonce and Disney are all listed, It is hard to believe, is it not?

NRA members should demand a refund of their $35.00 year membership and elect new leadership.

[Shadow1]

Re: Gun Control

So Shadow1 would you agree that hollow point bullets have no place in recreational shooting or hunting? Their only purpose is to cause massive trauma to human bodies.

Absolutely not. I would call that an extraordinarily biased and uninformed statement.

At the shooting range it is HIGHLY recommended to become familiar with whatever rounds you will be using for a self defense weapon. Sure JRN ammo is cheaper, and you can do much of your practice shooting with it, but you need to put at least several hundred rounds of JHP's through your gun. These bullets have a much different weight and mass distribution, therefore they "Feel" different to the shooter - you need to be familiar with that. Since the bullet's nose is shaped much differently, some magazine fed pistols don't like to "eat" some hollow point rounds - you need to be comfortable that your pistol won't jam when your life depends on it.

Target shooters are rather choosy about their ammo - certain ammo simply shoots better in a particular gun. There is no rhyme or reason to what any particular gun likes, but accuracy can vary widely, and what shoots horribly in one rifle may be the most accurate round in another. There are a lot of technical reasons for this (Barrel vibration, chambering characteristics, land jump, muzzle flare, etc.) but they won't hold interest to anybody in this discussion who doesn't target shoot.

Having said that, many target competitions prefer a bullet called a "wad cutter". These bullets are basically flat completely across their nose. Without a "cone" at the tip to begin pushing the paper target out of the way the relatively sharp edge of the bullet cuts a nice clean hole through the target. They're not very aerodynamic, so this is mainly for short range pistol targets. Longer range targets use a "semi-wad cutter" where the outside edge still turns a nice sharp corner, but there is still a rounded cone in the middle - It's a much more aerodynamic nose, but still has an edge around the outside ring.

I can also tell you've never even spoken to a someone who hunts about the subject, let alone hunted yourself. We don't go hunting to wound animals or sentence them to a slow agonizing death. ALL hunting rounds are hollow point in one form or another. Because of the much higher velocity, they have a smaller hole in the point, and in many cases the hole is filled with a plastic tip (called a ballistic tip), but they are all hollow points for a quick, clean kill.

[Shadow1]

Re: Gun Control

NRA members should demand a refund of their $35.00 year membership and elect new leadership.

People who obviously have limited or no knowledge about a subject should educate themselves before expressing an opinion. It's one thing for people to suspect you don't know what you're talking about, it's another thing to open your mouth and prove it.